r/history Jan 31 '23

Medieval Mixed-Gender Fight Club: Behold Images from a 15th-Century Fighting Manual Article

https://www.openculture.com/2023/01/medieval-mixed-gender-fight-club-behold-images-from-a-15th-century-fighting-manual.html
1.3k Upvotes

476

u/DarkenedSkies Jan 31 '23

How to Defend Thyself Against an Interloper Springing Forth from thy Privy Whilst thy Man is abroad in Outremer - 4th edition, paperback

66

u/Meteor_VII Jan 31 '23

Required reading at my fencing school.

39

u/ccReptilelord Jan 31 '23

But does it describe how to defend oneself from a man wielding fruit?

15

u/Old_Red_Alligator Jan 31 '23

We did that already, couldnt we try and defend ourselves from soneone attacking with a stick?

9

u/ccReptilelord Jan 31 '23

Pointed stick? Oh, we want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh?

3

u/RedOctobyr Jan 31 '23

Could we drop a 10 ton weight on them?

1

u/underground_avenue Jan 31 '23

Now... Did we do the banana?

3

u/Wintersbone7 Jan 31 '23

You simply release the tiger

4

u/CzarCW Feb 01 '23

Only if it’s a drive-by fruiting.

7

u/the_real_abraham Jan 31 '23

Surprise thy opponent with a strike to the gooch.

269

u/Skurrio Jan 31 '23

It's not a Fight-Club, it's Trial by Combat when a Woman doesn't have a Champion to fight for her against a Man.

58

u/DeusSpaghetti Jan 31 '23

Not nobility in this case, either.

40

u/Tankgoboom23 Jan 31 '23

It's funny that the article was trying to insinuate that it was wife vs husband. Also, imagine getting dragged into the hole that was given to you as a handicap?

52

u/BrockManstrong Jan 31 '23

The article literally calls the man vs wife angle "bullshit". That's a direct quote.

It goes on to say this manual was made 300 years after Man vs Wife combat disappeared from Europe.

4

u/Tankgoboom23 Jan 31 '23

Talking about the original, which this article referenced. Though, looking in retrospect, it does seem like I'm calling this article wrong.

18

u/CzebarosIsLife Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23

Hans Talhoffers fencing manual states, that is forbidden that the combatants are closer than a relation in the fifth degree (Item wenn zween mann gesinnt sind biß uff die fünffte sipp oder näher die mügent durch recht nit mit ein ander kempfen und des müssn siben man schwern die die vatter und muotter halb mäge sind - Talhoffer 1459, Page 9 recto) Therefore a fight between wife and husband is not shown in this document and probably illegal.

4

u/Tankgoboom23 Jan 31 '23

Thanks for the full run down. I don't understand too much of the German wording lol

7

u/CzebarosIsLife Jan 31 '23

I can translate it for you, If you want to.

1

u/Tankgoboom23 Jan 31 '23

If you have the time I'd love that!

1

u/palomageorge Jan 31 '23

Doesn’t this only relate to “Sippschaft” meaning being paternal blood relatives? I don’t see why this excludes spouses, a wife would still be considered a part of her own paternal “Sippe”. My Frühneuhochdeutsch is a bit rusty though.

2

u/CzebarosIsLife Jan 31 '23

I was thinking that a women would be part of heir husbands "sippe" when they marry, but I may be wrong. But independently of that, the text dosen't mention that this is a fight between a wife and a husband.

1

u/CzebarosIsLife Jan 31 '23

And further If two men are fifth degree or closer in relation they are forbidden by right to fight each other (in a trial by Combat). 7 men from the fathers or mothers side have to swear for this.

18

u/daHob Jan 31 '23

Yes, commonly wife and husband.

5

u/BillHicksScream Jan 31 '23

The article rejects that notion actually.

So, not funny.

8

u/bexmex Jan 31 '23

The article says it’s not from trial by combat, there were no records of that being used after 1200.

Altho I’m wondering if it’s a theoretical match-up for trial by combat? Like what if Bruce Lee fought Chuck Norris? Who would need the handicap, and how? Just in case it might crop up again with the next plague or what not.

10

u/raymaehn Jan 31 '23

it’s not from trial by combat, there were no records of that being used after 1200.

It's not from trial by combat to settle a dispute between husband and wife.

Trial by combat in general was still around, but it was only invoked in cases of (for example) murder, treason, blasphemy and a few other high-profile accusations.

11

u/Thusgirl Jan 31 '23

Really let's murderers off the hook if they're good at murdering.

19

u/raymaehn Jan 31 '23

This is a legal system that assumes God exists and is interested in humanity. Werner says that Albrecht killed somebody. Albrecht says that's a lie. Both have three respected members of the community backing them up. Evidence - based rulings and In Dubio Pro Reo aren't really things yet.

So what's the logical consequence? Appeal to the ultimate authority. Give Albrecht and Werner weapons, put them in the arena and let God sort them out. He'll make sure the guy who's in the right wins. It might seem barbaric from a modern perspective but from a medieval mindset it's elegant.

8

u/Thusgirl Jan 31 '23

So...

Really let's murderers off the hook if they're good at murdering.

12

u/raymaehn Jan 31 '23

Pretty much, yeah. But only if those murderers have just as many friends as their accusers.

2

u/Alarming-Ad1100 Jan 31 '23

Just wanna say you broke it down really well thanks for expanding my understanding of this a little more. Their perspective in mind it’s understandable and human strangely.

Thankfully things have changed but it’s so wild

1

u/[deleted] Jan 31 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/raymaehn Jan 31 '23

Thanks, that's good to hear!

When I'm talking about trials by combat I'm talking about roughly 1400 onward so I can't say much about what happens before that but to my knowledge it wasn't over after the fight was over. In my example, if Albrecht won and Werner survived the fight then Werner was on the hook now. Because if Albrecht won then Werner really did lie. To a judge, under oath. That was a serious crime in and of itself.

2

u/nsa_reddit_monitor Jan 31 '23

Technically trial by combat is still an option in the US court system. This is because it was legal in Britain when the US declared independence, and the British laws/precedents were mostly kept as-is. Britain outlawed it a few decades later but that didn't change the now seperated laws in the US.

Nobody's ever specifically outlawed trial by combat in the US because only a few people have ever tried to use it, and those people were told to shut up and just pay their traffic tickets.

2

u/Powerful_Phrase_9168 Jan 31 '23

Is it actually codified anywhere or just implied that it's a legal option?

4

u/jmcs Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23

I just found a recent legal article about it: https://lawpublications.barry.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1187&context=barrylrev

Still didn't read it but I'll post a TLDR when I finish skimming through it.

TLDR: it's not codified and the claim that the US inherited the full body of English Common Law at the time of the secession (including trial by combat) is generally not accepted. There's no explicit decision of the supreme court but it's very unlikely it's actually legal in the US.

2

u/jrhooo Feb 01 '23

Trial by minor combat would be amazing though.

Like, I get out of this traffic ticket if I can beat the cop in an arm wrestling match

18

u/Bullgrit Jan 31 '23

I understand this is trial by combat stuff, woman vs. man, and putting the man in the hole is meant to make the fight more fair. But what about man vs. man (or woman vs. woman) trials where one man is significantly bigger than the other, or more trained (or trained at all vs. completely untrained), or any other disparity between the combatants? What exactly is this concept of "fair"? Why would someone choose a trial by combat if they didn't think they had some [unfair?] advantage over their opponent? If fairness is desired, why not just roll dice and then execute (or beat) the loser? If the decision has to be through combat, and "God's favor" is expected to be the deciding factor, why isn't the larger man's advantage considered to be part of "God's plan"?

I'm asking legitimate questions, here, to hear answers. I'm not asking rhetorical questions to make a point.

Really, what variables were considered still fair, vs. what variables were considered unfair for a trial by combat?

5

u/smolDreee Jan 31 '23

trials where one man is significantly bigger than the other, or more trained

"Pick on someone your own size."

"Mess with the bull, get the horns."

3

u/HenrytheCollie Feb 01 '23

Talhoffer shows the other method to help make judicial duels equal and that is to use giant 2 handed spiked and hooked shields.

The idea being that these are such bizarre weapons that a fight should be equal as neither would have training in fighting with them.

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Hans_Talhoffer/Complete

19

u/-introuble2 Jan 31 '23

thank you for drawing my attention to this article & successively to the manuscripts!

11

u/creg67 Jan 31 '23

Watch the video at the end of the article. There is a modern day demonstration of what is depicted in the manual with explanations.

5

u/Thebitterestballen Jan 31 '23

It's great that they tried it out. This is a sport that I would watch :D

125

u/willrms01 Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23

It was how to settle marriage disputes in certain select cases if my memory serves me,the man had to be buried waste deep with one arm tied up and a weaker weapon I believe to make it fair.I get the feeling some wives really liked doing this lol

35

u/hey_listen_hey_listn Jan 31 '23

Waste deep. I thought they were buried in trash for a few seconds

11

u/OuchieMuhBussy Jan 31 '23

Some nice filth over there, Dennis.

29

u/s0nicboom714 Jan 31 '23

If you read the article, it actually claims that the interpretation you mention is hastily made and likely incorrect.

3

u/Nurgus Jan 31 '23

Why do people comment without reading the bloomin' article?

0

u/willrms01 Feb 01 '23

Apologies mate,from what I understood from the article anyway it appears the best guess is either some form of historical combat between men & women being depicted,which if pre-12th century could be the case,or it was artistic flourish which is more unlikely.

0

u/Undernown Jan 31 '23

In modern day this sounds more like a kink than anything else.

1

u/Kurta_711 Feb 01 '23

I get the feeling some wives really liked doing this lol

Good example of why feelings are not used in determining history

1

u/willrms01 Feb 01 '23

It was a little joke mate

1

u/Qwerty177 Feb 01 '23

They actually say in the artical that it is specifically not that

5

u/EMPwarriorn00b Jan 31 '23

Reminds me of the historical fencing group I'm in, with both guys and girls obviously.

30

u/tatramatra Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23

That's not "mixed-gender fight club" those are pictures of "trial by combat" or in other words, judicial duels where legal disputes were to be settled by duels ordered by the court.

As women were considered to be at the disadvantage in combat, men were to be handicapped in duels with women to make fight more "fair".

Pictures are from a fighting manual supposed to teach people how to fight these trials.

4

u/BillHicksScream Jan 31 '23 edited Feb 01 '23

LOL. This was centuries before apparently and the article even brings in a historian to dispel such assumptions specifically.

Says so much about reality: we can put words right in front of someone, bit they might ignore them in explaining them.

4

u/eedewah Jan 31 '23

What? The article explicitly disagrees with you. According to the historians, Talhoffer was covering his historic bases by including them.

Says so much about reality: we can put words right in front of someone, bit they might ignore them in explaining them.

12

u/thisplacemakesmeangr Jan 31 '23

Objectively, which of these pictures shows an effective technique for any situation you'd likely experience needing actual self defense? Serious question.

49

u/raymaehn Jan 31 '23

None, this isn't a self defense situation, this is highly ritualized trial by combat. Treatises for "real" combat or self defense exist as well but obviously they look a bit different. They don't start with one of the combatants in a hole, for example.

14

u/daHob Jan 31 '23

Yeah, judicial duels were a common thing throughout the middle ages. Many combat manuals and some of the weirder weapons of the time were designed for duels and not general combat.

-5

u/thisplacemakesmeangr Jan 31 '23

I've seen quite a few and my dad made me do martial arts because of my size, that's why I had to ask. It looked more like someone in the 15th was trolling than anything someone would actually do. Like under any circumstance, considering the kinesics and logistics. Extended face down in a hole, in combat? Thought I was having a flashback.

13

u/raymaehn Jan 31 '23

Well, the guy who wrote the treatise fought judicial duels as a job so I'm not sure if there's a whole lot of trolling going on here. That doesn't mean something like this happened often or regularly but I wouldn't discount it happening at all. It might be a way to even the playing field so to speak. The woman gets the freedom of movement and can play out her range but since the man is standing in a hole his center of gravity is so low he can't be grappled effectively.

-2

u/thisplacemakesmeangr Jan 31 '23

The one with the most egregious lack of sense has the woman upside down. I'm also a clinical massage therapist for the last few decades, there's no way I know of to make physical sense of that picture. The lady is looking at a broken neck if the 2 of them so much as squirm wrong let alone fight.

14

u/raymaehn Jan 31 '23

Maybe it's because I've been reading these treatises and attempting to reconstruct the techniques in them for a long time but it makes sense to me. In that image the man has (somehow) managed to neutralize the woman's weapon (possibly by wrapping it around his mace or arm) and gotten her close enough that he could sweep her off her feet and pull her into the hole where she's defenseless.

Also, yeah, that might result in a broken neck. That was the goal. Judicial duels were fought until one side was either dead or had given up. They were only called when there was a stalemate in a case where the death penalty was on the table, this wasn't something people did for petty grievances. Especially since they believed that God would grant victory to the person who had been telling the truth. That meant the loser hadn't been telling the truth, which means they had been lying under oath. Which could be punishable by death.

1

u/thisplacemakesmeangr Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23

Neat! That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks. (From manual I was assuming they were techniques, like teaching a form. Not like circumstances that might occur.)

11

u/raymaehn Jan 31 '23

It's kinda-sorta both. Most European fighting manuals don't really work with forms as you would know them from Eastern martial arts, it's mostly scenarios. The text says "If your opponent does X then you do Y" in varying degrees of detail and the picture shows what that's supposed to look like.

The problem with Talhoffer is that it's essentially only images and no text which makes it harder to interpret. Also it's still medieval, and medieval art doesn't follow modern rules of depth which doesn't help either.

Talhoffer shows judicial duels because that's what he knew, that's what he was qualified to talk about. Other manuals depict fighting in the context of self defense or a training hall or a duel of honor depending on where the qualifications of the author were and how they wanted to present themselves.

2

u/thisplacemakesmeangr Jan 31 '23

I noticed out of 7 pictures, 6 of them have direct or implied contact with a genital region. Have you seen the other pictures from this manual, did they just pick salacious ones for the article? And the last has the lady grabbing a boob out of nowhere which I'm having a hard time fitting into context. Any guesses?

3

u/raymaehn Jan 31 '23

It's this) manuscript. You can see contact with genitals not only in this specific setup, it also appears in other areas. Not exactly sure why, maybe it's because the groin is a convenient place to set up a takedown that also hurts when you grab it. AFAIK you get similar situations in folk style wrestling like Turkish oil wrestling or Glima, but I'm not sure. That said, grappling isn't my strong point, I mainly concentrate on the armed stuff.

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1

u/Thatparkjobin7A Jan 31 '23

Are there any medieval self defence manuscripts that depict kicking your attacker in the groin?

4

u/raymaehn Jan 31 '23

Yup. There's a treatise) associated with Albrecht Dürer (yes, that Albrecht Dürer) where groins get kicked, knees get stomped, arms get broken and eyes get gouged.

8

u/mangalore-x_x Jan 31 '23

This is assumed a specific kind of duel to settle a dispute by commoners/town people where a woman was defending her rights.

The hallmark of duels was that they were intentionally designed to equalize the combat so "God's will" was not distorted by something like one guy being a trained swordsman. Another was that (particularly if not of the knightly class) you actually wanted a lot of duels not to be to the death but until one side yields. Obviously depended on what this was about.

For that reason specific, weird looking fencing shields were common, too. Easy to defend, awkward to handle.

3

u/PlayedUOonBaja Jan 31 '23

One of those British History shows that did an entire episode on this trying to recreate the techniques in the illustrations. Took me a second, but I found it. They also recreate some of the siege engines and other inventions from the manual.

1

u/celticchrys Feb 01 '23

...and a real trial by combat, just as depicted in this book! https://youtu.be/Zj6YvSZfEW0?t=729

Thanks for sharing that video.

2

u/Refreshingpudding Jan 31 '23

Why is there a hole like a bugs bunny cartoon?

1

u/Rawesome16 Jan 31 '23

IIRC the man stands in a shallow pit while the woman stands. I think it had to do with divorce or a scorned woman

1

u/nith_wct Jan 31 '23

It seems like the article is actually directly contradicting that.

-1

u/Rawesome16 Jan 31 '23

I'm going to trust the sources I've read my info from more than this one that I've never heard of.

That and a quick Google search of "middle ages divorce by combat" sites multiple sources with that exact picture claiming what I said to be the accurate one

1

u/nith_wct Jan 31 '23

Did you read the article? This manuscript was made after divorce by combat stopped.

-1

u/Rawesome16 Jan 31 '23

So how am I wrong? It's the same style of fight, from the same rules. I said originally it was a divorce method, your said no its not, now are saying it's based on it? Why are we even talking? If I were not being paid for this is not worth my time

1

u/celticchrys Feb 01 '23

You're wrong for passing on incorrect information from incorrect sources.

1

u/Salpal777 Jan 31 '23

Where can I get those rash guards?

1

u/grambell789 Jan 31 '23

this just makes me wonder how sword centric society was back then. it reminds me of how every problem looks like a nail if you have a hammer. solving civil law problems with swords seems so strange. I wonder how much of it was to just discourage people from using the process.

0

u/lochlainn Jan 31 '23

Not much at all. Swords were tools. The single most common one was the falchion, aka machete, owned by probably every farmer in Europe in one form or another. It was also the most common battlefield sword, used by nobility as well.

Generally, other than a belt knife, the wearing of weapons when not "under arms" as a watchman was limited to travel, and even then not always, depending on the size of your traveling party. The medieval world wasn't nearly as violent as most people think; a simple walking stick or staff was usually more than enough. The idea that everybody was armed and armored constantly is a modern invention.

1

u/Flammenschwert Feb 01 '23

Falchions are absolutely not machetes or general tools, they're sidearms for hunting and war that range from relatively inexpensive to the highly ornate but who's handling characteristics in no way compare to machetes. Surviving examples of falchions from the low class to the high class have actually fairly light blades and a great deal of distal taper, unlike the simple blade geometry of a machete. Their cross-sections get narrower as they get closer to the tip to improve handling, unlike machetes which generally have the same width the whole of the blade because they're made for toughness. Tools used as weapons, such as the seax, do exist, but falchions aren't in that category.

1

u/raymaehn Jan 31 '23

Less than you'd expect but more than today. A trial by combat was very much the exception, not the norm.

But swords and the ability to fight were status symbols, they expressed power, authority and privilege. First and foremost of nobles and knights but also of other social classes and authority figures.

That has to do with the feudal class system. Generally, in the very broad strokes, serfs didn't have the right to wear swords, but they also didn't have the duty to join the army in case of a war. Free people could be drafted but they had the right to wear swords. That was very important to the craftspeople and merchants in the big cities, especially since there wasn't such a thing as the police yet so knowing how to defend yourself was sometimes a good idea and sometimes legally required. Wearing a sword meant "Look at me, I'm free and proud of it. I can afford a sword and I can and will use it on you if you give me a reason to."

1

u/Powerful_Phrase_9168 Jan 31 '23

These images are great! Also, I never knew of the concept of divorce by combat. Is this something well documented? What areas is this said to have occured in?

1

u/WanttobeWannabe Jan 31 '23

Never heard of this. But completely fascinating. I wonder how many forms of martial combat have been and gone. The good ones just evolved I suppose.

1

u/Deatheturtle Feb 01 '23

The first rule is thou shalt not speak of fight club!

1

u/MoronTheBall Feb 01 '23

Medieval Mixed-Gender Fight Club is the name of my post-punk experimental acid-jazz trio.

1

u/Yugan-Dali Feb 01 '23

The last time I saw this it said it was a chance for wives to work out their frustrations on their husbands.

1

u/Mutterlover Feb 02 '23

Literally just watched this on History Hit last night

1

u/ImLostInTheForrest Feb 02 '23

"The male combatant, armed with a wooden mace, starts out in a waist-deep hole.
The female, armed with a rock wrapped in a length of cloth, stands above, feet planted to the ground."

Nothing but more questions here ...

1

u/BillyBlabby Feb 03 '23

A lot of people have asked if there was a 15th century version of Fight Club, and from what I hear, it was called 'Feudal-Knockout'!