r/nextfuckinglevel Mar 21 '23

Professional wrestlers at work.

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27.1k Upvotes

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4.9k

u/tomdcamp Mar 21 '23

Nobody denies it’s scripted. The appeal is it being a soap opera with more stunts and fights.

1.4k

u/SNYDER_BIXBY_OCP Mar 21 '23

Yeah and to be accurate this is one style of pro-wrestling. This is Lucha a more acrobatic focused style.

Still good stuff. Not everyone's flavor but all styles take incredible athleticism.

358

u/shaddowkhan Mar 21 '23

I didn't know there were different styles to wrestling.

1.3k

u/SNYDER_BIXBY_OCP Mar 21 '23 Gold All-Seeing Upvote Take My Energy Masterpiece I'll Drink to That Helpful (Pro) Mind Blown

Much of it is mixed together bc talent travels around more these days than 20 years and earlier.

But the 4 basic cornerstones are American, Japanese, Lucha, Euro.

To be a geek there is a drop down menu from that.

Puroresu: is collectively Japanese and was traditionally focused on trying to look as authentic to sport & reality. That's not the case today but inside Japanese style is "Strong style" which just means the physical contact is more realistic looking and sometimes is actually just hitting each other for real at 80%-60% strength. Then there is hardcore which is just guys focused on using weapons and stuff and lots of blood. And then there is Owarai = comedy. It's like live action Monty python. Guys wrestling blow up dolls or kids wrestling adults but the kids have equal strength to the adults.

Lucha: Mexican style. It's more dance focused. The mask thing is tied to an idea of spirits and myth akin to Kabuki theatre. It really hasn't changed that much since the 1920s when it first became crafted the way it is see. Today.

American: The basic American style of pro-wrestling as you/we know it originates from The Gold dust trio in Chicago. It took the legitimate competition style of the 1800s-1920s and merged it with the showmanship concepts of the circus wrestlers. To be both sport & entertainment. The genres in America decend from this tradition with ratio mixtures of how much sport or how much entertainment is in the final proudct. The differences being separated by regions of the territory system that sprouted in the 1940s and formalized in the 1950s. The biggest labels would be southern style, midwest-northeast <big man style>/"punch-kick", and Texas style <Dory Funk Sr style>. And there are even nerdier nuances like Florida vs. Carolina, LA vs. Portland.

But the biggest differences in American styles were defined by their TV presentation with really only Southern style being visibly very different from Big man style of the midwest/northeast. And in modern times there is a hardcore scene and comedy scene both borrow/copied early 90s from Japan. With some comedy being borrowed from Euro/world of sport.

Euro: Is closer to American but has a stronger basis in sport and lower volume of entertainment in the mixture. Their style is closer to big man than southern. But they have their own unique comedy based element often called "world of sport" referencing the main TV show British wrestling was featured on in the 50s thru 80s. It uses athletic grappling routines for serious and comedic situations. The basis of Canadian style wrestling merges world of sport and big man to be its own distinctive flavor.

And 1980s Canadian wrestling also merged Lucha and Japanese elements to become it's own new hybrid popularized by Dynamite kid, Owen Hart, and Bret Hart.

In fact the Canadian hybrid system is the root inspiration for about 90% of the wrestling you see in America and Japan today outside of the wwe. A mix of power slams, high flying acrobatics and dance like sequences with Japanese strong style striking.

Ok that's enough.

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u/KinkyGCM Mar 21 '23

This keeps going and I keeps reading it. Beautiful

223

u/yopro101 Mar 21 '23

The fuckin lore dump holy shit

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u/usertaken_BS Mar 21 '23

We got the fuckin mother lore and I ain’t mad about it.

11

u/bohanmyl Mar 22 '23

Maaan. The lore in wrestling is so deep especially between companies. Storylines that run for multiple years and culminate in massive feel good victories etc. Its the only sport where you can force a Cinderella story and it still feels just as amazing. Itd be like watching a 16th seed win the play in round in March Madness and go on to win the whole tournament but you can legit just plan it out and do it whenever you want. Benoit/Eddie at Wrestlemania 20. Daniel Bryans win at Wrestlemania 30. Kofis win at Wrestlemania 35. Hangman Adam Pages whole storyline with the Elite and title win at Full Gear 2021. Wrestling is at its best when it focuses on a serious story and tells it like a movie and i cant think of a better feeling ive had being entertained than watching a dream match end the way you want it to ESPECIALLY live.

70

u/Busy-Mission-1221 Mar 21 '23

You know your wrestling stuff well.

6

u/10BAW Mar 22 '23

But does he know his Judo well?

4

u/Deathwatch050 Mar 22 '23

What is the charge?! Enjoying a comment? A succulent, wrestling-focussed comment?

3

u/depulso_account Mar 22 '23

Here you see downvoting manifest!

2

u/wigbot Mar 22 '23

I do. I did it for 27 years.

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u/Sc1F1Sup3rM0m Mar 21 '23

As a lover of puroresu and someone losing my patience with American style wrestling, this description was fair and beautiful. I'm not sure I've seen all the styles described so succinctly before.

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u/rockyjack793 Mar 21 '23

Jeez are you Dave meltzer

33

u/zoidy37 Mar 21 '23

That'll be 10.99 please

2

u/pookachu83 Mar 22 '23

If it were Dave there would've been about 100 "um, eh,um"s in that, uh, statement .

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u/jmberger82 Mar 21 '23

I'm going to take umbrage with the glossing over of the British/catch styles as most notably shown by Zach Sabre Jr. and William Regal. This uses more joint based manipulation and submissions.

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u/SNYDER_BIXBY_OCP Mar 21 '23 edited Mar 21 '23

That's fair, but ZSJ is following more in the shooter lineage as opposed to Tru catch.

ZSJ DNA is more Dean Malenko-Fujiwara-Dory Funk Sr shooter than World of Sport.

Regal is def 100% catch, as he was trained by Marty Jones who was taught by the Godfather of World of Sport style Billy Robinson.

Regal also has German grapple flavor from his time in the summer tent tours and if we're being honest Regal's style is mostly David Taylor with more charisma.

Just like Fit Finley is David Taylor with less finesse and more power/brawling.

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u/StoneGoldX Mar 21 '23

Ironically, the one time a long post didn't end with you remembering that in nineteen ninety eight...

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u/BoomShackaLocka_ Mar 21 '23

Don’t forget my favorite style. Socko.

15

u/ih-shah-may-ehl Mar 21 '23

Wonderful. Thx!

15

u/Story_Mountain Mar 21 '23

You should extrapolate the ideas and history you just provided into a book. With enough research to provide anecdotes, you could have a NY Times best seller

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u/harriethocchuth Mar 21 '23

Not to take the shine off this excellent suggestion, but I would like to humbly mention The Comic Book Story Of Professional Wrestling by Aubrey Sitterson and Chris Moreno. A slightly longer, well researched and beautifully illustrated guide to the historical roots and worldwide styles of professional wrestling.

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u/Story_Mountain Mar 21 '23

That is awesome, and now I know what to get my Pops for fathers day. I still think there is room for another history. Perhaps one filled with authentic pictures from the past and around the world?

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u/mr_wrestling Mar 22 '23

For it to be fully comprehensive... It would need to be like a fucking encyclopedia.

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u/pookachu83 Mar 22 '23

Yup. While pro wrestling has gone in and out of the mainstream over the last few decades, it has been one of the longest lasting forms of live entertainment. No off seasons, the lore is worldwide and extremely comprehensive. Forget anime or Tolkien lore, pro wrestling lore could fill multiple Bible sized volumes. I've lived it since a kid, it's one of the few things that has stayed pure since my childhood. I believe while not popular mainstream like it was in the late 90s or 80s, we have been in a pro wrestling renessaince since about 2015-16. The division between styles and Japanese wrestling vs American is growing thinner and thinner, the styles are merging together. We've seen some of the best wrestling (atheletically) the last 10 years than in history. It's just on another level.

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u/ttywzl Mar 21 '23

Unsure if special interest or just very knowledgeable, but I like your work here explaining the styles and niches of a thing I'm very unlikely to have learned more about otherwise.

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u/smallerchungus Mar 21 '23

You’re my new best friend

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u/Liiame Mar 21 '23

Wow, that was extremely informative. Makes me curious to check it out for myself. Any recommendations to ease oneself into all of this? I don't have a TV so I could only watch online however..

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u/GeologicalOpera Mar 21 '23 edited Mar 22 '23

Warning in advance for a content dump:

If you’re in the United States, WWE’s library (including a vast archive of older promotions) is folded into NBC’s Peacock streaming service, which has a free ad-supported section.

The other major American promotion (AEW) has two shows they post to YouTube, and they’ve uploaded some full matches to YouTube; Their sister promotion Ring of Honor has done the same.

Impact Wrestling has a YouTube channel that regularly uploads old matches and shows for free, and if you pay a small fee (IIRC $1 per month), you can watch their weekly show there as well.

Stuff like the above (CMLL, from Mexico) is usually viewable on YouTube, though it’s often with the Spanish commentary so if that’s a barrier for you I’d suggest trying to find subtitled uploads or their English-dubbed broadcasts.

Japanese matches are harder to come by in full, particularly New Japan Pro Wrestling, because of copyright, but you can find their older matches on YouTube or other streaming platforms pretty easily. If you want to see what’s going on right now, they offer NJPW World, which you can sign up for as long as you’ve got a VPN set to Japan. Word of warning; they bill you when you sign up and again on the 1st of the month, so I’d advise waiting for the 1st of April if you go that route.

Edit: Didn’t realize NJPW had gone global, so if you’re U.S.-based there shouldn’t be any signup issues.

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u/Rodan_Hibiki Mar 21 '23

Pretty sure NJPW World is available in all regions. It’s at least available in America without the need for a VPN.

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u/mr_wrestling Mar 22 '23

I'm a diehard fan for 30 years and just looking at this is overwhelming

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u/GeologicalOpera Mar 22 '23

Diehard fan of 12+ here, and I was overwhelmed typing it tbh. I ended up leaving out Euro completely because I've only ever followed that scene casually (WhatCulture/Progress/ICW in the mid-2010s), and I don't feel qualified to talk about stuff like WoS or anything in that earlier era.

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u/Liiame Mar 21 '23

Yo thank you so much!!

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u/TheFatJesus Mar 21 '23

Luckily, most of the major promotions are available on one streaming platform or another.

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u/T3Deliciouz Mar 22 '23

Depends on what you want.

Assuming you're a Westerner, I would suggest WWE and AEW to get an idea.

WWE's biggest show of the year Wrestlemania is coming up April 1-2 (2 night event). There's a lot of major storylines that are gonna come to a climax there, and luckily WWE has excellent video packages recapping the events leading up to the matches.

AEW just had a massive PPV, but their sister promotion ROH also has a major show the night before Wrestlemania (ROH used to be a small independent promotion that has an annual show right before Wrestlemania to siphon fans. The company has grown but the tradition remains). ROH will be a bit different from WWE and less glamour, but might still peak your interest.

A lot of wrestling PPVs are on FITE.tv

Some other notable events;

IMPACT/NJPW Multiverse United (cross promotion show)

GCW Bloodsport (GCW is an indy promotion. Bloodsport is an annual show where they remove the ring ropes and majority of matches are more technical based with grappling/submissions/striking. No flying around like in the video above.

I will recommend one specific show you can easily consume. Lucha Underground. It was a wrestling show that lasted 4 seasons. Very different presentation from the live sport presentation other promotions do. LU was a legitimate TV show, has a start and end (although incomplete). Everything was filmed in a warehouse with a live audience who were allowed in for free to watch the wrestling. A lot of characters, a lot of good cheesey action film vignettes, a lot of great wrestling. Also because wrestling is fake and anything is allowed, it played up more supernatural elements.

My personal favorite promotion is the Japanese company NJPW (New Japan) because I love their style and their method of long term storytelling. That's an aspect many people don't mention about pro wrestling. Pro wrestling takes place in real time. You have a cast of characters to follow, but they age as you age. In a book, 10 years can pass over a few pages. In wrestling, 10 years passes over 10 years. It adds another layer to the deep emotional impact storylines can have when a wrestler does something; winning a championship they were chasing, defeating an adversary they couldn't before, betraying their long time friend.

And going back to WWE, Wrestlemania is especially hyped right now because we have a very long story coming up. Roman Reigns, double world champion is defending his titles against the prodigal son Cody Rhodes. Roman has been the reigning world champion for the last 2.5 years in WWE, the longest reign in 3 decades. Roman has also been the very top guy in WWE since roughly 2015/2016. Cody and Roman are both heirs to legacies as their fathers were both popular wrestlers, in fact Roman's entire family is involved in wrestling. Cody is fighting to win the world title his father, Dusty Rhodes never was able to win. Cody has gone through his own 15 year battle to reach the top, and he's gonna Finish the Story.

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u/pookachu83 Mar 22 '23

I'm not going to give you a detailed list of current promotions and lore, but just one match to watch- Naito vs Kenny Omega (new Japan pro wrestling) from a tournament called g1 climax, semifinals in 2016. That was the first match I watched after over a decade hiatus as a fan, and the athleticism and showmanship blew my mind. If you like that I can send you a list, but to me that's a good match to give you an idea of how good modern wrestling can be, and in my top 3 matches of all time.

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u/AlexJamesCook Mar 21 '23

When people think of performance art, they think Russian Ballet. You sir, have the ability to take this genre of performance art and make it as complex, nuanced and as graceful as Bolshoi Ballet. I tip my fedora to you.

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u/analog_approach Mar 21 '23

This is a great read, I'm not a wrestling expert, so thanks much for the detail.

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u/xv_boney Mar 21 '23

Shit man, I started writing out a reply to that guy and when I was halfway through Lucha Libre I saw you had already covered everything.

Great comment b

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u/WornInShoes Mar 21 '23

I was honestly waiting for the “and then The Undertaker threw Mankind off the top of the Hell in the Cell” at the end

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u/Joebebs Mar 21 '23

Aight, my question to you since you know all of this, what’s your favorite match, favorite move, fav wrestler, what’s the most dangerous move/moment and do you know how to perform any wrestling moves yourself? Lol

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u/tiktaktok_65 Mar 21 '23

i was waiting for the undertaker

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u/shabba_skanks Mar 21 '23

Thanks for that bud!

I'd like to signup for your newsletter now...

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u/TurtleSquad23 Mar 21 '23

I see you know your judo well

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u/fotorobot Mar 22 '23

Japanese style is "Strong style" which just means the physical contact is more realistic looking and sometimes is actually just hitting each other for real at 80%-60% strength

I have this link saved of Japanese Womens' Wrestling that looks like they copied the idea of wrestling without realizing it's fake.

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '23 edited Mar 22 '23

[deleted]

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u/disisathrowaway Mar 21 '23

Could you explain more about the American styles?

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u/Haiku-d-etat Mar 21 '23

Damn. Never been a wrestling fan but always appreciated their athleticism and the characters. That was some real information right there.

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u/wanksta616 Mar 21 '23

Love the write up but it seems your lucha section is not as thorough as the others :(

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u/SNYDER_BIXBY_OCP Mar 22 '23 edited Mar 22 '23 Gold

Lucha has held onto their traditions in a way other forms have not. Wrestling is the most important cultural sport on the planet bc it has to appeal to the people to survive. So, it is always a caricaturized reflection of the culture.

Lucha has a deep lore and is unique from other Wrestling forms bc for a long time there was only one major promotion started in 1933.

Consejo Mundial de Lucha Libre (CMLL)

Much like Mexico had one ruling political party after the 40-year revolution/civil war.

CMLL was the only show in town controlled by a powerful group of families who violently ( I'm talking like people have been killed) opposed any competition in the nation.

And it's illegal to mention Lucha without saying it's single biggest star and cultural icon El Santo.

Google him bc he is like Hogan, Stone, Cold, The Rock, and Andre the Giant and the pope, rolled into one in terms of how big a fn star that dude was.

Anyway, It wasn't until 1992 that a new company rose from a group of guys who broke away from the CMLL regime. (At the same time, Mexican real-life politics saw its first break away political party).

A guy named Antonio Pena launched Asistencia Asesoría y Administración (AAA) >>Triple A

Triple-A worked bc Pena left with the biggest hottest young star at the time, a guy named Konnan. Konnan, in the late 80s and early 90s, was turning into a Mexican Hulk Hogan. He was tall (for Lucha at 6'2) he was jacked, and he moved like a Panther.

Konnan was also a brilliant buisness man, and he built a roster of young, amazingly talented guys who were being held down by CMLL politics. Pyshcosis, and more importantly, Rey Mysterio Jr.

Konnan also came up with the radical plan to book AAA matches in Southern Texas and Southern California to appeal to young Mexicans in the states as well as Latino Americans.

They made slight innovations to Lucha by bringing more flying in, and building on the cross pollination of Japanese styles that Ultimo Dragon (Asai), and Tiger Mask 1 (Sayama) had brought to Mexico in the 80s.

Konnan would get AAA solidified by being a brand ambassador in the states and everywhere he went, he brought Mysterio Jr, and Psychosis. And Eddie Gurrerro & Art Barr.

In November 1994, Konnan & AAA would produce When World's Collide PPV staged in LA.

This PPV is the single most important event for all of modern pro-wrestling. It starts/creates so many different reverberations that reshape so many different facets of the industry. And deserves its own essay but for this post the two biggest things is that two men Paul Heyman & Eric Bischoff would fall in love with many stars from the show.

Paul Heyman would invite Konnan to wrestle in his American upstart company Extreme Championship Wrestling (ECW) in 1995 and Konnan will bring Psychosis/Mysterio, and Eddy Guerrero with him.

ECW was akin to punk rock on the 90s American wrestling scene and it requires its own essay but the point is.

When Psychosis & Mysterio have their first "Mexican Death Match" on ECW TV it introduced modern Lucha to the hardcore fans and tape traders in America in a way that their earlier American matches had been very underground or a one off like their world's collide ppv).

This strengthens AAA commercial appeal in Mexico and North America. And it will help Triple A start a talent exchange-style cross pollination that will welcome young Japanese stars, and Canadian & Euro stars. And Lucha will export itself like never before.

Eric Bischoff was president of a company called world championship wrestling (wcw) owned by Turner entertainment and the only national/global competitor to WWF/E in the 90s

WCW will book/raid ECW and sign Konnan-Psychosis-Mysterio-Eddie among others and by 1995-96 the mainstream wrestling world beyond Mexico and southwest USA will be introduced to Lucha in full.

AAA & CMLL benefitted in some ways but they did get hurt by many top talents being able to find higher paying opportunities in wcw/wwf Japan but the Mexican Lucha scene also met a higher engagement in terms of video tape sales which was a big deal in the 90s.

Anyhow, Lucha as you see it today is a reflection of the innovations Rey Mysterio Jr, Konnan, and 1980s guys like Japanese star Ultimo Dragon and original Tiger Mask would bring.

However Lucha is such a gigantic export over the last 30 years that every single wrestling style in the world has distinct Lucha influences in the in ring product.

--> You can watch World's Collide for free YouTube.:::: https://youtu.be/NJ_1DPGIX3I

--> Also here is the legendary Mexican Death Match FROM ECW::: https://youtu.be/d6mZO3Js7ko

--> If you want to see "classic Lucha" at its very best then watch this clash of legends in a mask vs. Mask match [traditionally if you loose your mask you retire/die in lucha cannon] so think of this as a retirement risk match. Where there are two beloved men and the fans LOVE these men. The tears and crying is real. Also note at how diverse a lucha crowd is, old young men/women, whole families. American wrestling hasn't had those demographics since the 1980s.

Villano 3 vs. Atlantis (2000). https://youtu.be/G3EZRKDkDVI

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u/wanksta616 Mar 22 '23

Dude take my gold. This was an awesome read.

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '23

no this is actually good lol

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u/-QuestionMark- Mar 22 '23

What style was it back in nineteen ninety eight when the Undertaker threw Mankind off Hell in a cell into the Spanish announcers table?

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u/guidedlaser Mar 22 '23

As a Portlander, I gotta ask. What's different about Portland wrestling?

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u/SNYDER_BIXBY_OCP Mar 22 '23

Well it's really getting in the weeds and based on TV presentation.

Portland wrestling was notable for being a place where the TV interview became a powerful element in selling the matches.

Other places relied on the interview. But in Portland they had a very progressive tradition in the late 70s where guys "cut promos" that had a new approach.

Traditional style was focused on selling the time/date/place and just saying your tough bc you're the best athlete or bc your a lumberjack or a former soldier and it's made you tough etc.

In Portland wrestlers started doing promos by telling back stories that weren't tied to a profession but to forming a psychological state and lore. Roddy Piper took this to a whole new level when he came to Portland and turned himself into the star that would show up in WWF.

Traditional approach: " My name is Bill and I'm fighting Jim next week at the Auditorium and I'm gonna win bc I'm the best athlete."

Portland Style: MY name is Roddy Piper and I'm wild fighting SOB, I've had a hard life that made me a hard man, and when I'm in that ring I fight to survive bc that's how I've made it in life, so next Sunday whoever the poor SOB is facing me is gonna get destroyed bc its the only way I know to wrestle.

This style will pollinate into other regions and continued to be expanded. Jake the Snake would perfect this psychological based promo in wwf and Mick Foley would reach its peak with his 1995&96 ECW- Tommy Dreamer feud.

There are still tons of great traditional style promos out there. Ric Flair all the way to The Rock are excellent examples.

Dusty Rhodes is a bit of a hybrid of traditional and psychological.

It's a loose term these days bc modern guys kind of merge it all together.

But Portland is a place where guys crafted a particular motivation for being in the ring that wasn't exclusively competition or bc they were wronged by a personal grudge with a specific guy (southern style).

They were driven by personal emotional and psychological things that made them run roughshod over the others or compelled them to unleash hell on an innocent target.

Cactus Jack's "Cane Dewey" is the Godfather/Citizen Kane apex example of this style that germinated in Portland.

Cane Dewey https://youtu.be/wgyG68uEpVA

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u/CrimsonOffice Mar 22 '23

I love this content! Reminds me of when I was a kid being a huge fan of WWE content.

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u/alilbleedingisnormal Mar 22 '23

I wish I knew anything as well as this man knows wrestling.

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u/Devlos00 Mar 22 '23

That’s enough but it doesn’t have to be. Incredibly informative. Never knew any of that but reading it I recognize it all.

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u/robgod50 Mar 22 '23

I remember the British wrestling in the 70's as a kid with Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks being the 2 biggest stars , household names known by everyone.

Now, competitive wrestling (as a sport - not the scripted stuff) just isn't a thing in the UK anymore

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u/DrSuplexII Mar 22 '23

Dude, that is the best breakdown of international pro wrestling styles i have ever read. That was awesome. Man i fucking love pro wrestling

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u/Dr_Duckdick_DVM Mar 22 '23

Damn dude. I’ve been a wrestling fan since 2009 and I don’t think I could ever be this eloquent in explaining the trade. Bravo.

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u/LameBMX Mar 22 '23

Man. I couldn't give 2 shits about wrestling. But this, this was a damn good read. You sir, are a gentleman, and a scholar!

Tips hat

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u/Devmax1868 Mar 22 '23

To add to the historical element of wrestling, many scholars believe it's the closest thing to what live Shakespearean plays may have looked like. They were worked "in the round" meaning the crowd surrounded the stage. Speaking of the patrons, they were common folk who would boo the bad guys and cheer the heroes and sometimes throw stuff at the performers. The plays obviously are violent, a little crass, and contained melodrama and comedy. They were also held in either taverns, or more likely, giant outdoor playhouses, kinda like indie shows vs arena shows.

Certainly sounds like every pro wrestling show I've ever seen.

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u/Glendalerian Mar 21 '23

scripted or not... this takes hard work and long team practice.

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u/PilotAlan Mar 22 '23

Not everyone's flavor but all styles take incredible athleticism.

True, especially seeing in slomo. That's like Cirque de Soliel level stuff.

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u/OG-Dropbox Mar 21 '23

Hurricanrana is the coolest thing the human body is capable of

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u/PaulblankPF Mar 22 '23

Everyone loves a good flier

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u/Sticky_Waifu_Statues Mar 21 '23

It's 100% redneck anime

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u/RANDOMjackassNAME Mar 21 '23

This actually was Mexican luchadores.

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u/backflipsben Mar 21 '23

Who says Mexicans can't be rednecks

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u/Solipsikon Mar 21 '23

That's basically what I tell people who start with that bs.

"It's fake? You mean they're not actively trying to hurt each other? No shit, you think anyone would leave the ring without an ambulance after a 'real' tombstone piledrive? The appeal in the 'fights' is how they manage to actually pull the stunts off without ending up dead or in the hospital."

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u/xadiant Mar 21 '23

I only watch real fights. I love watching teenagers stab each other. Yesterday I watched a middle aged man break a skull like a melon with his baseball bat. I don't watch drama TV either. I can always break into an ICU and witness real hospital drama.

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u/Ich_Liegen Mar 21 '23

When they start with it just ask "then why do you enjoy movies? Or TV shows? Don't you know those are scripted?"

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u/bmilker Mar 22 '23

Simple answer: the acting is believable.

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u/Solipsikon Mar 21 '23

I will. Much better than mine.

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u/AtomicSamuraiCyborg Mar 21 '23

I'm not sure why people still decry it as fake. Yes, we know that, it's been the open fact for like a generation now. The kayfabe was broken long ago, modern fans growing up have known it was always scripted. As time has gone on, it has only gotten more outlandish. Look at the clip; half the moves are entirely the work of the guy getting 'thrown'. The wrestlers are ACTING; they are pretending that the whole thing is real and matches are genuine, because it makes it dramatic.

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u/PostmortemFacefuck Mar 22 '23

people who say "you know it's fake, right?" exude the energy of a cool 10-year-old who just learned that wrestling isn't actually 'real'. and it's like their perception of wrestling got stunted on that phase, and that's where they regress to anytime they see wrestling brought up.

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u/TheFatJesus Mar 21 '23

"Wrestling is fake"

"What!? No. Are you telling me that wasn't really an undead wizard from Hell throwing a mentally ill man with 4 seperate personalities off of a steel cage in 1998 where he then plummeted 16ft through the announcer's table? You have just ruined my day."

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u/joethecrow23 Mar 21 '23

They still get really fucked up though.

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u/SirKaid Mar 21 '23

Highly physical acting is hard as fuck to do properly. Like, if you flub a line in a play you can improvise a way to get back into it and toward the next line, but if you flub a physical cue someone could get seriously hurt.

Doing it live, at full speed, night after night? These guys are amazing.

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u/CheshireTheLiar Mar 21 '23

I never enjoyed it when I was younger. As an adult, it's definitely entertaining, even knowing it's scripted.

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u/adsfew Mar 21 '23 edited Mar 21 '23

Yeah, I missed arguably the biggest phase of recent American history (the Attitude Era) even though all my friends were into it because I thought it was dumb and fake.

As soon as you realize everyone knows it's fake (except maybe the kids) and that it's just another form of fictional entertainment, you can see the cool parts of it.

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u/RipnTearurbutthole Mar 21 '23

Back in the earlier eras of pro wrestling, calling it a soap opera would be kind of fitting. Now, calling it combat theater is more on the dot, more because of social media. Now it's more focused on the journey of getting to the eventual finish of the match or story.

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u/fotorobot Mar 22 '23

I think soap opera is still a very good comparison. Due to the frequency of episodes, how quickly a script or storyline may need to be rewritten or reworked based on staff availability, long-running characters with long histories with one another.

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u/MR___SLAVE Mar 21 '23

They are decent wrestlers. We'll see how they develop their through lines in the second act.

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u/eXeKoKoRo Mar 21 '23

The DBZ of real life fighting.

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u/NavierIsStoked Mar 21 '23

It’s a choreographed stunt show. Those wrestlers are Fucking legit muscle bound acrobats. No one should ever think otherwise.

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u/analbumcover69420 Mar 21 '23

Another South Park fan, I see

3

u/retiredhobo Mar 21 '23

“rope opera”

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u/nadvargas Mar 21 '23

You can't deny the athletic ability.

3

u/Shahzoooo Mar 21 '23

The show is scripted, but the broken collar bones are real

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u/Judoosauce Mar 21 '23

Violent gymnastics

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u/no-mad Mar 21 '23

suspension of disbelief, is hard for some people if it is not tv or a movie.

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u/Groomsi Mar 22 '23

Live Action movie!

Or gymnasts going fake voilence.

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u/creepyguy_017 Mar 21 '23

Scripted or not, you gotta admit thats an amazing performance.

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u/egstitt Mar 21 '23

It's definitely scripted, and it's also pretty damn incredible

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u/gordielaboom Mar 21 '23

Right?! It’s brawny ballet!

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u/modsith Mar 21 '23

Thats a good one, im stealing that one.

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u/Former-Storm-5087 Mar 21 '23

Redneck Ballet is also one of my favorites

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u/whatproblems Mar 21 '23

it’s just mens intimate dancing

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u/Your_Daddy_ Mar 21 '23

People pointing our how wrestling is scripted, after like 100 years of pro-wrestling being main stream - you think?

Everyone knows its scripted - but the point is there is always a story line, and its always drama, and often it ends with a great smack down of someone.

I dont watch it that much these days, but as a kid, WWF wrestling was life!

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u/Awkward_Potential_ Mar 21 '23

They think it shows their intelligence. I might start pointing out that X-Men movies aren't real to sound smart.

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u/Your_Daddy_ Mar 21 '23 edited Mar 21 '23

I know the type too well.

Same people that got upset over a fictional Ariel from Disney re-imagined as a black character.

As if mermaids of any kind are real, lol.

I think wrestling is a lot of fun. I subscribe to Peacock, and they have all the WWE stuff on there, so I check it out sometimes.

Back in the day, like late 90’s - my uncle had this little device that would scramble your cable box, giving you access to all the pay channels for free. It also got you the free PPV stuff, like Wrestle Mania! Got to see The Undertake throw Mankind of the freakin cage! Shit blew my mind!

Undertaker toss…

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u/StoneGoldX Mar 21 '23

Which is more embarrassing, watching wrestling or being an admitted Peacock subscriber?

Speaking as someone who does both. The dollar a month deal was too good.

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u/subtxtcan Mar 21 '23

The people in that industry whom I've met a handful of (smaller circuits than WWE or anything), they are a total package deal if they're good. Acting and drama, creativity, dedication to the story, but on top of all that is actual, real deal athleticism. It always impressed me.

I'm not a wrestling "fan" but it's been in my orbit since childhood and I've got a deep respect for it.

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u/Paladin1034 Mar 21 '23

Fake fights, real athleticism.

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u/thestashattacked Mar 22 '23

I like to say it's fake in the way that Cirque de Soleil is fake: You definitely can't do it, and it takes a lot of skill.

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u/David_Haas_Patel Mar 22 '23

Not scripted. But the bullet points are in place. They call 75-95% of the match as it's happening based on general layout and crowd response. Which is impressive.

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u/GregoryGregory666666 Mar 21 '23

Always have to laugh at the moves such as the end where the wrestler on the floor moved closer to the other guy jumping down on him. I worked security for a match with Sgt. Slaughter against Jimmy the Fly Snuka years back. They were mortal enemies so they got separate changing rooms that was connected by an inner door. They went to their respective rooms post fight screaming crap at each other. I was with the Sgt. when the inner door opened and Snuka came in. The back slapping and laughter was fun to watch. But there are some damn good athletes in this very scripted activity.

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u/datmuttdoe Mar 21 '23

Wait, they were friends behind the scenes...IT'S STILL REAL TO ME DAMMIT!

I remember a panel from a mad magazine back in the 90s I read once where it was poking fun at wrestling. The one image I remember was "only in wrestling will you have a man from Ohio pretending to be middle eastern with a man from Maryland in a headlock and the crowd chanting "USA! USA! USA!" or something like that.

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u/GregoryGregory666666 Mar 21 '23

Back in 86 I was in training in DC and two of the trainers there were big time wrestling fans. They were ready to fight me for saying otherwise. I watched it as a kid back in the late 60's and early 70's and my Dad used to say that stuff is fake. I didn't believe him for a while. The athleticism is incredible in the higher levels of the sport though.

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u/datmuttdoe Mar 21 '23

I was a huge fan in the 80s and 90s. Once wcw dissolved I was already pretty much out. I was living in St. Petersburg FL as a kid and used to see Hulk hogan riding around on his Harley. It’s genuinely good entertainment, or at least for me it was.

Real or not, Hogan vs Andre, Hogan vs Macho Man, Sting, the Hartts…so fun to watch. And the Razor Ramon vs Shawn Michaels ladder match is unrivaled as the goat in wrestling entertainment.

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u/AsstDepUnderlord Mar 21 '23

the athleticism def real, but the damage these guys do to themselves is too. I think your chances of living long and healthy are probably higher in the ukrainian army than the WWE.

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u/GregoryGregory666666 Mar 21 '23

I was trying to remember when this happened and could not recall the year so I ran to Google. You're right though and even with this little bit of info it still remains they put their bodies through some torture.......... FROM GOOGLE.. "When did people realize wrestling wasn't real? The first public acknowledgment by a major insider of the staged nature of professional wrestling came in 1989 when World Wrestling Federation owner Vince McMahon testified before the New Jersey State Senate that wrestling was not a competitive sport."

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u/Your_Daddy_ Mar 21 '23

Many years back!

Remember Sgt Slaughter (bad ass name too) did the GI Joe PSA's??

I learned out to swim/float thanks to those PSA's.

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u/[deleted] Mar 21 '23

I got to meet him a bunch of years ago. He signed autographs at a baseball game. Stood and took pictures with kids and fans through 8 innings.

He even was nice enough to let me get a picture of him putting me in the Cobra Clutch. Super class.

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u/chesterjosiah Mar 21 '23

"Sergeant Slaughter" lol The name itself is amazing and brings back childhood joy. What an epic beast! I remember his stache and combat boots clear as day.

Who was the villainous guy with the spiky boots?

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u/GeologicalOpera Mar 21 '23

If you are thinking of boots with the curled toes that came to a point, that was the Iron Sheik. I’ve seen roughly 5 decades of wrestling (1970s-present) in the time I’ve been a fan and he’s the only person I can think of whose footwear matches your description.

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u/GregoryGregory666666 Mar 21 '23

I cannot recall as I did not watch much later in life. But at this event the crowd was very anti Slaughter and he asked me in the changing room if we could give him a ride to the parking lot so he doesn't get his ass beat. He really was smaller than I would have thought. I was 6'6 and about 250 at the time and I felt like I could take him. (J/K). I ordered our transport wagon to drive over and back up to this door and he jumped in for a safe ride to his car. He was so grateful to me. Another wrestler who stood out one night after an event was the Iron Sheik. A co-worked was checking on a Cadillac parked in the fire lane of a busy shopping center when the Sheik came busting out of the pizza joint yelling his fool head off. My friend, who was as calm as could be and everyone loved him, put his hand on his revolver as he backed up to his car telling the Sheik to move his car now or it would be towed. My friend drove away and watched to see the Sheik get in and park. I laughed my ass off on this one.

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u/Unable_Coat5321 Mar 21 '23

I hate it when people say it's fake. It's not fake, it's scripted, there's a difference. Everything they're doing is very much real.

They don't just hand out contracts, titles etc to just anyone they feel like. You still have to be at absolute elite level at what you do to get a contract, more so for a title. These guys still train, practice and dedicate their lives to their craft just as much as every other sports star. People don't realise the amount of skill involved. Professional wrestlers deserve a lot more credit than they get

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u/FallenG0ddess Mar 21 '23 edited Mar 21 '23

It's like saying an acting performance is fake. Much like acting, it's a wrestler's job to draw you in and suspend your disbelief with a display of artistry.

Edit: all I'm seeing is a bunch of people getting butthurt because others like something they don't understand fully.

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u/XDnB_Panda Mar 21 '23

precisely

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u/DenialAndEroor Mar 22 '23

I don’t understand how I’m 2023 it is still considered shameful to be a wrestling fan, I bought tickets to a show that I had to travel too, when the guys at work found out all I got was “you know that is fake right right?” “ why would you tell anyone you like wrestling” etc. Why do I have to be ashamed to like something?

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u/FallenG0ddess Mar 22 '23

Because they feel superior pointing out something they believe is stupid. When all they're doing is being a dick.

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u/LastChristian Mar 21 '23

I hate it when people say it's fake. It's not fake, it's scripted, there's a difference. Everything they're doing is very much real.

Ok but people call it "fake" because it presents itself as a real sporting competition and viewers have to figure out that it's actually not one.

It's the same as if The Dark Knight Rises said the footage of Bane's crew hijacking the plane was actual footage. People would say, no, it's fake. Only in some weird fan universe would people say "No it's scripted because the stunts were real."

Wrestling is "fake" as long as it presents itself as a real sporting event. As soon as it presents itself as simply an improv-gymnastics act then no one will need to point out it's fake.

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u/FallenG0ddess Mar 21 '23

What about magic. Do you feel a constant need to point out that the woman isn't really sawed in half? That the elephant didn't really disappear? Or do you appreciate the illusion and the artistry and let people enjoy things?

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u/Awkward_Potential_ Mar 21 '23 Take My Energy

You've never watched a wrestling show if you think they're trying to pretend to be real. GD, dumb people who think they're smart are the worst.

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u/Soggy-Piece6800 Mar 21 '23

Bro it’s so easy to understand 💀. People are aware it is scripted. That doesn’t take away from the showman’s ship unless you are a literal child who thinks these moves work in real fights.

The whole point of the moves is to be flashy and for show, half of them aren’t even survivable without all the cushioning you gotta do to your opponent. No one is here arguing it’s a legitimate brawl to the death other than maybe school children, in which case you should really learn what battles are worth fighting lmao.

Scripts don’t take away from enjoyment unless you want them to.

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u/Ich_Liegen Mar 21 '23

viewers have to figure out that it's actually not one.

Stuntmen are fake. They're not real. They go on movies that present themselves as a real battle between a cop and a serial killer and the fans have to figure out it's actually not real.

Sounds stupid, doesn't it?

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u/apikope Mar 21 '23

It is a real sporting competition when they compete for a prize. Yes, they pick the winner beforehand, rehearse the match and sometimes have some kind of storyline to get people more invested. But it's still sports.

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u/TheWholeFuckinShow Mar 21 '23

I forget which wrestler said it, but it was something along the lines of "I never understood how some people thought we hit each other with fake chairs. How is it fake? It's made of metal I'm sitting on it. It's a fucking chair. It hurts."

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u/FormerRelationship8 Mar 21 '23

Dudes are agile as fuck. That takes work

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u/yehcheersaye Mar 21 '23

Mans 42 years old!

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u/siccoblue Mar 21 '23

I broke my femur three separate times just watching this video and I'm in my 20s

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u/TheyreEatingHer Mar 21 '23

It's basically gymnastics floor routine for men.

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u/omnomization Mar 21 '23

I'm exhausted just watching. I can't believe how long they can flip around like that.

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u/BlackberryMobile2394 Mar 21 '23

This really is some next level art. I always hated it growing up because I knew it was fake, and choreographed, but as I grew older I learned to appreciate the art and amount of effort it takes to do this sort of thing. Good for them, they’re some serious athletes! Still think it’s silly though, but that’s just me.

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u/Dudeiscray Mar 21 '23

Also, not everything is choreographed. Only some key moments of the match (the most important ones). A lot of the stuff that happens is improvised. Wrestlers talk to each other for the next move. That's why it's important for them to know all the moves in a ring and learn how to execute them. That will make a difference between the elite wrestlers and the average ones.

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u/BlackberryMobile2394 Mar 21 '23

Okay, maybe I should have edited for “Skill” in there somewhere.

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u/LambCo64 Mar 21 '23 edited Mar 22 '23

I've been a massive wrestling fan my entire life, but something I can never wrap my head around is people who don't watch it saying the same thing;

"You know it's fake, right?"

Of course we know. But you get caught up in the fight, rooting for your favourites to win and the bad guys to get their asses handed to them.

No one ever asks if I'm aware that Movies are fake.

And I understand that it used to be presented as legitimate sport and that keeping the fact that it was preditermined a secret was how they used to operate, but we are decades past that at this point.

And I hate the term "Fake" being used to describe it. It's predetermined of course, and depending on the wrestlers it's either choreographed beforehand or choreographed while in the ring, but the result of the scripted violence is often quite real not to mention the level of skill it takes to make it look (mostly) real and not hurt each other is incredible .

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u/Your_Daddy_ Mar 21 '23

It may be a scripted sport, but these wrestlers are in peak condition.

Some of them are legit fitness freaks - on par with NFL players.

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u/LambCo64 Mar 21 '23

Exactly. I trained to do this a few years back (had to stop for health reasons, long story) and it is absolutely brutal. Your cardio especially needs to be amazing to do this at a high level.

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u/Your_Daddy_ Mar 21 '23

I was watching a video of training at the WWE performance center - that shizz looks way intense.

Joe Blow is not gonna walk in and jump in that ring - so in that regard - I think it’s a serious sport.

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u/pookachu83 Mar 22 '23

This may get me downvotes, but I'd say some elite wrestlers even surpass nfl/NBA players as far as conditioning and athleticism. To go and lift a man repeatedly and continually do these moves for 20-30 minutes without getting blown up(winded and visibly tired) takes insane conditioning. There have been many cases of "elite" NFL or NBA athletes signing up to be in a pro wrestling match and getting winded and blown up 3 minutes into the match and later stating how incredibly hard it is to do. These guys don't get enough credit. People compare them to gymnasts, but gymnists only go in short bursts if a few seconds at a time, some of these matches go to the 40-60 minute marl in some cases. It's crazy.

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u/Turakamu Mar 21 '23

Brock Lesnar comes to mind.

He'll do this shit where he runs the ropes but he clears the ring in a few steps and it looks scary as fuck.

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u/clothesline Mar 21 '23

Kayfabe officially died with the attitude Era in 1997. That was over 30 years ago! When David Arquette was screaming wrestling's not fake in that movie

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u/captainmcfuzzypants Mar 21 '23

Ok that’s actually really impressive.

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u/Kalakarinth Mar 21 '23

Impressively that main wrestler, Volador Jr, is 42

2

u/MH360 Mar 21 '23

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Virus was also in the mix, and he's 54.

Knew Volador Jr as soon as I saw him, the grey hairs suit him well nowadays.

I'm so damn thankful for New Japan putting on Fantasticamania, truly.

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u/tacomeat247 Mar 21 '23

Got to attend a CMLL event in Mexico City a week ago. The badass is Volador Jr (I think) Ringside seats were $25 and it’s one of the best nights of my life. So much fun.

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u/Minimania18 Mar 21 '23

Yeah that's Volador Jr.

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u/EbenezerBoink Mar 22 '23

I was there! Back in the cheap seats, but still one of the best events I’ve ever been to.

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u/DougieSenpai Mar 21 '23

Yes we know it’s scripted guys. Like no shit.

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u/MitchLGC Mar 22 '23

Thread basically ruined by "scripted" talk what a waste of time

We all know. Everybody knows.

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u/Your_Daddy_ Mar 21 '23

That last flying move out of the ring was siiiick!

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u/AutumnAscending Mar 21 '23

Why does every country take pro wrestling more seriously than the country who made it. I haven't watched since like BigShow was popular but even back then the US wasn't doing the things that Mexico, Japan, or Argentina do.

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u/FallenG0ddess Mar 21 '23

American pro wrestling has always been more about the storytelling and soap opera drama as opposed to "workrate" which is what you're referring to. It's catching up these days but Mexico, Europe and Japan are very much ahead in terms of pure in-ring athletic talent.

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u/goforbrokecoke Mar 21 '23

Also American top talent was usually bigger and more jacked.

So by necessity they're less flashy but the basics look extra good. A crossbody from a 6''3 guy who could be an NFL linebacker isn't as complex as a 5''6 slim guy doing a triple flip senton but it looks just as (if not more) amazing.

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u/hadawayandshite Mar 21 '23

Pretty sure ‘pro wrestling’ was being done in Britain and France etc before America

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u/AutumnAscending Mar 21 '23

Homie, you know full well. I don't mean professional Greco-Roman wrestling.

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u/pookachu83 Mar 22 '23

He wasn't talking Greco-Roman Roman. Scripted pro wrestling has been a thing in Europe and Japan for ages, as well as america.

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u/Daemonblade Mar 21 '23

Amazing stuff. It really annoys me when people say these men and women aren’t athletes.

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u/FAmos Mar 21 '23

just because it's choreographed doesn't mean it isn't Real

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u/wiggens Mar 21 '23

Thats a legit luchador

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u/Low_Atmosphere1218 Mar 21 '23

Lmao this looks fun i also wanna just grab a random person a street and just start spinning on his shoulders

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u/skkitzzo Mar 21 '23

I would love you see you attempt to do any of what you saw in this video, I would pay money for that

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u/Keltoigael Mar 21 '23

Love Lucha Libre.

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u/Arcuis Mar 21 '23

Holy shit. This is gymnastics with yo momma jokes.

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u/Trick_Succotash_9949 Mar 21 '23

Doesn’t matter what people say about it not being Wraaaaaastling - the sheer athleticism is something to admire.

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u/rambone5000 Mar 22 '23

Clearly fake and cgi.

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u/Ok_Departure_8963 Mar 21 '23

This guy!!! WTF, I’ll 100% get back into WWE if it was like this. And of course more babes as well

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u/engineerFWSWHW Mar 21 '23

When i was still watching WWE, i think Rey Mysterio is the representative of this style of wrestling.

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u/Drop_That_Pickle Mar 22 '23

Rey is still mixing it up in WWE, though I think he is on the verge of retirement. His son, Dominic, is also a wrestler now, and they are currently in a rivalry with each other.

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u/zackthegiant Mar 21 '23

Check out AEW, or NJPW.

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u/PoignantOpinionsOnly Mar 22 '23

There's some high flyers in WWE right now. But they mix with various other styles.

There's a current storyline where a big strongman was making fun of "flippy" guys. Then he got teamed up with one and learned to respect their style and all that.

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u/PedrArte Mar 21 '23

Fuck this is a show I would watch!!! Pros!!!

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u/Noisebug Mar 21 '23

Everyone knows it's scripted and not my flavour.

However, it tells a story and those guys work hard to tell it. Respect.

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u/ArgumentLost9383 Mar 21 '23

I would have preferred the video without the slow motion

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u/True-Boss9201 Mar 21 '23

This is like swing dancing mixed with gymnastics with angry faces

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u/DutyRoutine Mar 22 '23

The dude is like the Nadia Komenici of wrestling . .

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u/Alternative_Dog1411 Mar 22 '23

Real athletes doing athletic shit never fails to impress me.

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u/Flyby1441 Mar 21 '23

Although I may not appreciate this talent as much as the next guy, you gotta have respect for what I just watched. That was pretty badass.

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u/CardiologistBig842 Mar 21 '23

The way he sticks his arm out the end to catch dude lol.

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u/taylormadeone Mar 22 '23

Yeah I was commenting elsewhere that that’s how you tell the difference between indie wrestling and wrestling in the WWE or a bigger promotion.

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u/ViciousReality Mar 21 '23

There really should be a pairs floor routine for the Olympics

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u/roughingit2 Mar 21 '23

Anyone else notice how close his head came a couple of times to hitting the floor? Wonder how many times that's happened and accidently knocked him self out...

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u/JamesCDiamond Mar 21 '23

Probably quite a few. There aren't many wrestlers who've avoided injury, either through overdoing a move or by their opponent being in the wrong place/not catching them quite right.

It's a collaborative exercise and the move taker is as important as the move giver (sometimes more) but no-one's perfect. Some of the very best have had the worst injuries because they push themselves so hard.

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u/DaddyDontTakeNoMess Mar 21 '23

Muscular gymnasts.