r/science 13d ago All-Seeing Upvote 2 Platinum 1 Masterpiece 1 Take My Energy 1 Wholesome 1 Facepalm 1 Helpful 3 Evil Cackle 1 Mind Blown 1

Data from 35 million traffic stops show that the probability that a stopped driver is Black increases by 5.74% after Trump 2016 campaign rallies. "The effect is immediate, specific to Black drivers, lasts for up to 60 days after the rally, and is not justified by changes in driver behavior." Social Science

https://doi.org/10.1093/qje/qjac037
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u/lime3 13d ago

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u/quarrelau 13d ago

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u/FizzWigget 13d ago

Why does that get added? Notice them show up and breaking Wikipedia links

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u/unwantedposterboy 13d ago

The reddit mobile app does that because it can't handle underscores in URLs properly.

The main reddit site is supposed to fix it on-click for non-app users, but it doesn't.

The app is kinda garbage, IMO, but so many people use it now it has become an uncomfortable reality for all.

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u/sincle354 13d ago edited 13d ago

Refuse garbage apps, download reputable third party ones instead.

RIF

Sync

Boost

Bacon reader

Apollo

Slide

old.reddit.com on desktop.

RES on desktop

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u/Tchrspest 13d ago

Tbc: Old.Reddit doesn't fix the backslash insertion issue, it's actually sort of the "root" of the problem in that most apps sort of function like Old.Reddit, but with a different skin on top. The actual root of the problem being "it's a stupid thing that literally doesn't need to exist"

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u/grantrules 13d ago

If RIF and old/RES die, I will not be a reddit user

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u/centralstation 13d ago

Same dude. I've tried so many times to 'give in' and just use the modern reddit, but it feels, looks, and acts like I've moved out of a nice old house that's a bit rickety, but still has years left in it, and now live in a nice modern shiny public toilet.

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u/Millillion 13d ago

I don't mind the way new reddit looks, there's just too much stuff going on in it.

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u/Comfortable-Interest 13d ago

I hate the fact that almost 2/3 of the page is useless blank space and it keeps moving me off the main thread when I want to load more comments, then leaving me somewhere else when I go back.

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u/Daniel_Finklebottom 12d ago

More clicks more ads more revenue

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u/Jolly-Independence64 12d ago

I use, and have always just used the Reddit app off the App Store. What am I missing out on?

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u/ThatOneGuy1294 13d ago

The eternal optimist in me says that Reddit's investors will never allow that to happen. No chance they'll be on board with the idea of losing a portion of the userbase by removing old reddit.

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u/grantrules 12d ago

I bet we're the least valuable users from a business perspective. I have ads blocked on Reddit. Maybe other users would leave without my hilarious and insightful comments

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u/NielTheGrassBison 13d ago

RIF

Or alienblue if you're into that sort of thing

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u/Z_Coop 13d ago

RIP the OG Alien Blue. The 4 years of free gold after the buyout was cool while it lasted though.

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u/Giraffestock 13d ago

Oh man when this finally ended I was bummed. I had gotten used to it.

P.S. alien blue doesn’t crash on some newer phones

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u/GeronimoHero 13d ago

Apollo is its spiritual successor and can be ad free too depending on the plan you choose. There are free options too but the basic premium subscription is very cheap at 99c a month. I think ultra is only like 1.99 and it’s a major value if you spend a ton of time on Reddit.

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u/Giraffestock 13d ago

Oh yeah, i copped Ultra years ago. Just nice to have the (original! Not the redesign) alien blue UI sometimes.

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u/GeronimoHero 13d ago

Yeah I got ya. I was an alien blue user too and got the 4 or 6 years of gold when it was bought by Reddit too. I was really bummed when it was snatched up because it got really buggy in the period following that buy out. There weren’t really any good alternatives at that time either. I remember jumping to apps like Narwhal, bacon reader, etc., but none of the them were anywhere near as good as alien blue had been. So it was a real relief when Apollo finally hit the App Store. I don’t think a lot of people realize just how much better alien blue really was when compared to any other iOS Reddit app available at the time. It was a huge gap in app quality.

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u/Ged_UK 13d ago

I mean, I loved Alien Blue, but it's antiquated now. Apollo is the spiritual successor for ios.

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u/Rehendix 13d ago

Relay is my goto on Android.

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u/Alundil 13d ago

been a RIF user for years - how it Relay compare? Or do you know?

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u/SoopahInsayne 13d ago

I use both rif and relay, I think relay is better with more features overall but rif handles comment threads so well that it's still my #1. Ads are also less intrusive in rif, I keep accidentally touching the ad banner on relay. Used rif for like 7 years and relay for like 2.

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u/Rehendix 13d ago

Haven't used RIF since I came from Bacon Reader, but as a whole I feel like Relay is just a really slick, no nonsense experience. The developer is also pretty on top of things. Best feature is the auto-upload to imgur for image sharing comments though.

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u/Alundil 13d ago

Interesting, thanks. The auto-upload to imgur seems like a nice QOL cutting a small number of steps out

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u/rotinaj31 13d ago

So I use RFI and have for years at this point. I do have the official app as ot has the chat function where RIF doesn't. Does relay have that feature? If so I may jump there

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u/Rehendix 13d ago

Unfortunately, the official app is the only one with access to chat, rpan, online status indicators, etc. that have been added since the new reddit layout/app. They haven't made access to those features available, and without breaking Reddit's ToS, there's no way to gain access to it.

Reddit's goal, though they haven't explicitly stated it, is to kill off third party applications and the old reddit layouts. The old API that all the current apps are using will likely live on for a while, but eventually Reddit's likely to replace it and lock out anything that was using it.

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u/KennyHova 13d ago

Been using rif since before reddit even had an app. I'm so used to it now I can't stand the app. Or maybe the reddit app is trash

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u/NielTheGrassBison 13d ago

Same situation. Yes to both.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

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u/chaun2 13d ago

The meme when the Reddit App came out, years after several third party apps, was a good guy Greg, with the text: [top text] "Reddit makes official app years after third party developers." [bottom text] "makes the official app a crappy mess, so people won't use it."

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u/andrewsad1 13d ago

At this point, it's a deliberate attempt to make the site worse for people not using new reddit or the app

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u/Tchrspest 13d ago

Exactly. It's a feature that doesn't need to exist, solving a problem that wasn't there and creating new problems for everyone not using Reddit's new terrible layout.

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u/SeveredEldest 13d ago

Which ridiculously is hard to do with how terrible the app is

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u/TBeest 13d ago edited 13d ago

Because a double underscore _like this_ will make text cursive without the backslashes to undo it.

The new Reddit "fancy pants" editor still runs markdown in the background, it just hides it. Hence those backslashes get added in secret to any markdown characters, be they in a link or otherwise. But because of this it messes up links because for some reason they neglected to make an exception for those.

Edit: some clarity

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u/Alis451 13d ago

text cursive

italics

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u/wellwhatevrnevermind 12d ago

Cursive would be cooler

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u/psychoCMYK 13d ago

Except they do recognize links, innit? Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be trying to escape the underscores. It's like they recognize it's a link, then try to make sure none of the characters get caught in markup not realizing that reddit already ignores markup rules within a URL

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u/TBeest 13d ago

They only recognise the underscore in the link. If you were to paste an underscore it would add the backslash regardless.

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u/psychoCMYK 13d ago

Ah that might be it. I've never used one of these broken apps but it makes a lot of sense that they would escape formatting marks in anything pasted

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u/Thee_Sinner 12d ago

Was the original comment edited? The links look identical to me

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u/kc2syk 12d ago

You can call /u/underscorebot to fix these for you. Or add it to approved submitters to have it scan a subreddit.

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u/makemeking706 13d ago

404'd for me.

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u/TrekkiMonstr 13d ago

Remove the slash before the underscore. God, New Reddit is trash

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u/Psychart5150 13d ago Silver Take My Energy Ally

For all the comments here questioning the methodology of the study, good, that’s how we should treat new information. It’s great critical thinking skills to question why a hypothesis might be false.

If you read the article you see that they answer most of the questions people here asked. It is a pretty thorough article.

What upsets me is that people use these critical thinking skills less when it comes from speaker which they admire or praise. This is meant for everyone, regardless of your political affiliation. I don’t care if you think the other party does this more or not. Be more critical on what these people say.

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u/Technoalphacentaur 13d ago

Yea their whole breakdown of how they did the econometrics was pretty dang good. They explained their data sources and how they estimated everything they’re testing for. Can’t be mad at the methodology myself.

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u/CanadaPlus101 12d ago

Yep. Critical thinking should be an everyday chore, a form of hygiene. All too often it only happens when the information presented is painful.

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u/OffensivelySqueamish 12d ago

What bothers me: people who use this tactic aren't interested in the answer to their critical questions. They're only interested in expressing them to an audience that may be swayed by their doubts.

The mechanism by the internet is destroying society: confirmation bias.

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u/JustABigDumbAnimal 12d ago

"Just asking questions" aka JAQing off.

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u/Ryan_22 13d ago

Link to full paper, since everyone seems to be drawing conclusions without reading it.

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u/Zoesan 13d ago edited 13d ago Helpful Wholesome

For people wondering:

If trump rally in county

then 5.74% higher chance of being stopped (1.07 percentage points) while black for 60 days in that county

Also interesting:

Trump rallies are associated with a 5.6% increase in the number of Black stops relative to Whites and a 5.4% increase in the overall number of Black stops. By contrast, there are no treatment effects of Trump rallies on the share or the number of stops of any group other than Black drivers with respect to one another.

and

The effects on the probability of a Black stop are also specific to Trump rallies. We show this using a triple differences specification that compares changes in police behavior after rallies by Trump vs. rallies by either the Democratic contender to the presidency, Hillary Clinton, or the other leading Republican opponent, Ted Cruz.

and

We also show that there are limited geographic or social spillover effects of a Trump rally beyond the county where it occurred, suggesting that the county is the appropriate level of analysis.

and

Using stop-level information on collisions and speed radars as well as additional evidence from crash and fatality data, we find no evidence for a change in the racial composition of drivers or in driver behavior. This suggests that the effect of Trump rallies is due to a change in law enforcement behavior

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u/Cole444Train 13d ago

This seems like a very thorough, credible study. They really went out of their way to demonstrate the correlation and eliminate other potential causations.

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u/Jackso08 13d ago edited 13d ago

I'm usually very skeptical of stuff like this but it seems credible and through so I'll accept it.

I wonder why it only last for 60 days, like theres some heating and cooling affect. Of course the heating is obvious but why does it cool off in two months

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u/Affectionate_Local59 13d ago

The human body is exceptionally resilient at returning to its baseline emotional state. This is good (unless your baseline emotional state is anxiety or depression and then it’s extra bad!). Interestingly enough this transition takes… several months.

Of course, I have no proof this is more than correlation of time, but it seems a reasonable hypothesis to me at least.

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u/OnsetOfMSet 13d ago

The human body is exceptionally resilient at returning to its baseline emotional state ... Interestingly enough this transition takes… several months.

Recent anecdotal experience in my life aligns very closely with this. Not that it validates the claim any further, but it does make me interested in the research behind it. Do you happen to know any good places to read more about that?

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u/cpusk123 13d ago

no, you're mostly right. the identifier for normal emotional health is the ability to return to a baseline neutral state. anxiety is technically a normal part of human brain activity, as a warning for possible dangerous or negative future events, typically creating something like fear. anxiety disorders is where this occurs due to events that shouldn't produce that reaction to the same extent, and begins to interfere woth normal life. Depression is characterized by an inability to return to a baseline emotional state from a negative emotional state. this results from actual brain structure and biochemical changes. It's an actual physical change in the brain, not just an emotional state. depressed people physically cannot become happy.

I'm taking a neuropsych class for my pharmacy school degree rn.

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u/Yashema 13d ago edited 13d ago Take My Energy

I'm usually very skeptical of stuff like this but it seems credible and through so I'll accept it

Why? If the two options are society is substantially impacted by racism or society is not substantially impacted by racism, why assume one over the other?

Why be skeptical of the academic research revealing the world to be one way?

This paper is simply further confirming what academia has been finding for decades. And certainly if your conclusion from this paper is this is the only valid and proven racism made worse by Trump or the Republican Party over the last 10 years, you are ignoring a lot of evidence to the contrary:

Donald Trump’s presidency associated with significant changes in the topography of prejudice in the United States | Researchers found that explicit racial and religious prejudice increased amongst Trump’s supporters, while prejudice decreased among those who opposed him. link

Masculine insecurity predicts endorsement of aggressive politics and support for Donald Trump, suggests three studies, supporting the notion that men who are likely to doubt their masculinity may support aggressive policies, politicians, and parties, possibly as a means of affirming their manhood. link

People who voted for Donald Trump and feel warmly towards him tend to score higher on a measure of egocentric victimhood, according to new research. Those who exhibit heightened levels of systemic victimhood, in contrast, tend to be more hostile towards Trump. link

Researchers discover people’s endorsement of hegemonic masculinity — the belief that men are dominant, tougher, more powerful, or high status — predicts their support for Donald Trump in the 2016 and 2020 elections (regardless of gender, political party, trust in the government, race, or education). link

The desire to matter and feel significant among Donald Trump supporters is associated with support for hostile and vindictive actions against the president’s political rivals, according to new research published in the journal Political Psychology. link

Survey experiments show that (1) Trump's rise in popularity and eventual victory increased individuals' willingness to publicly express xenophobic views, (2) individuals are sanctioned less negatively if they publicly expressed a xenophobic view in an environment where that view is more popular. link

Trump supporters held more sexist views after his election than they did before, according to new research, suggesting that a onetime historic event can result in measurable shifts in social attitudes (n = 1,098 Americans before and 1,192 after the election). link

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u/HolycommentMattman 13d ago

Basically, during the rally, the racists get fired up. After a while, they just go back to normal.

60 days, though. That's a long time for a single rally.

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u/tundey_1 13d ago

I wonder why it only last for 60 days, like theres some heating and cooling affect. Of course the heating is obvious but why does it cool off in two months

Because like a horse thief moving in the dead of night, the Trump Hate Train never stays too long in one place. He comes, milks the people of their money, spreads hate and moves on to the next town.

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u/Sososo2018 13d ago

Also for those wondering, the Hispanic vs White vs API showed no change. Meaning there was no change in Hispanic drivers being stopped when compared to white drivers.

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u/hyperproliferative PhD | Oncology 13d ago

They controlled for a lot!

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u/Pablogelo 12d ago

It's a QJE paper, the most solid journal in economics, 3% acceptance rate. Any paper published in this journal can help you get good jobs

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u/TheDeucest 12d ago

Im gonna see what 'controversial' filter does for this one.

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u/blaghart 13d ago

And this is just what the cops are reporting, too, since cops aren't required to report in most states

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u/[deleted] 13d ago Wholesome

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u/LudovicoSpecs 13d ago Wholesome All-Seeing Upvote Starry

The effects are significantly larger among law enforcement officers whose estimated racial bias is higher at baseline, in areas that score higher on present-day measures of racial resentment, those that experienced more racial violence during the Jim Crow era, and in former slave-holding counties. Mentions of racial issues in Trump speeches, whether explicit or implicit, exacerbate the effect of a Trump rally among officers with higher estimated racial bias.

So with 35 million samples, they've quantified the racist ripple effect of Trump rallies.

It's now scientifically proven. Not anecdotal, not just one guy in a Hitler mustache or one guy carrying a confederate flag. It's systemic.

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u/ASlave23 13d ago

Stuff like this has been done before, also. Check out some of the research of priming, with regard to racial bias.

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u/PM_ME_AYY_LMAOOS 13d ago

"Black patients are significantly less likely to be prescribed pain medication and that they generally receive lower doses of it when they are. One possible reason for this, supported by existing studies, is that white people believe Black people experience less pain."

Sauce

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u/Niccy26 13d ago I'll Drink to That

We're also more likely to die in childbirth in the US and UK

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u/dezmodium 12d ago

And more so if the delivering and post-delivery doctor is white. Black doctors providing care for white babies show no statistical difference in mortality rates, however.

Results examining 1.8 million hospital births in the state of Florida between 1992 and 2015 suggest that newborn– physician racial concordance is associated with a significant improvement in mortality for Black infants. Results further suggest that these benefits manifest during more challenging births and in hospitals that deliver more Black babies. We find no significant improvement in maternal mortality when birthing mothers share race with their physician.

Source

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u/Hortos 13d ago

Racism helped black people avoid the opioid epidemic.

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u/HaesoSR 13d ago

This one reminded me of the study that showed black drivers are more likely to be pulled over during the day compared to white drivers, but roughly the same rates at night when the driver's race could no longer be easily discerned from a distance.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago edited 13d ago

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u/CurveOfTheUniverse 13d ago

all of their p values are 0.01. That means that with 99% certainty

That’s not quite what a p-value represents. A value of 0.01 means that if we ran this experiment 100 times, it is estimated that one of those trials would fail to reject the null hypothesis. To frame it a little differently, if we assume that the null hypothesis (Trump rallies do not increase frequency of racial profiling) is the way the world works, there is a 1% chance that we will observe a different result. The idea here is that, if we are observing something with such a wildly low chance of happening, it must be a significant effect.

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u/OkBreadfruit10 13d ago edited 13d ago

It's now scientifically proven

The scientific method provides evidence for or against hypotheses. As scientists we do not prove anything with our research.

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u/Captain_Hamerica 13d ago

And this provides strong evidence for the hypothesis that trump inspires racism in his rallies.

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u/TexanFromTexaas 13d ago

The abstract is literally to summarize the results and methodology of the paper.

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u/WumpusFails 13d ago

NYC had the stop and frisk rule, where police were able to stop anyone they wanted for a quick frisk.

Data showed that minorities were less likely (per capita) to have guns and other contraband.

Taking that data into consideration, the police ramped up the rate at which they stopped minorities. I think I saw one article saying that there were so many minorities being stopped that on average EVERY minority had been stopped. (Some stopped many times, some never stopped, but on average one stop for each minority.)

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u/jamphat 13d ago

Data showed that minorities were less likely (per capita) to have guns and other contraband.

probably precisely because they were frisking all the minorities but only the suspicious whites

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u/OmarLittleFinger 13d ago

Wow, think of the lost time and resources as a result from this. It is good to start seeing numbers and proof to back up what is going on.

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u/Paintingsosmooth 13d ago

I agree with you, but it’s always a shame that we hav to defer to the economic loss incurred as a result of bigotry as opposed to, say, the pure injustice of it or the psychological damage caused

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u/OmarLittleFinger 13d ago

I agree, an economic loss just puts a number to it.

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u/cloneketsuji 13d ago

We can also “put a number to it” by aligning this uptick with increased arrests, court appearances, fines and imprisonments. Those will impact in a few months but, people probably won’t notice because by-and-large it doesn’t affect their daily lives. At least not until that builds up into frustration, animosity and stress, boils over and we have another social flashpoint.

Reflecting on 100 years of this type of overpolicing, harassment and racism, we can draw a direct line to why we have, protests and social discord. Which unfortunately then starts the cycle all over again as police culture and white nationalists see civil rights in action as behavior that needs to be “put down” or “put into place”.

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u/HaussingHippo 13d ago

I believe some are conditioned to point it out for those that are the “socially liberal, fiscally conservative” type of moderates. Because they seem to not see the tie behind systemic social issues bleeding into economic issues as well. Which means those people are either conservatives trying to hide behind the veil of being a modern progressive, or just ignorant to the history behind our fiscal/ economic policies in most cases.

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u/RakeishSPV 13d ago

How did they measure that there were no changes in driver behaviour?

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u/cb_hanson_III 13d ago

They looked at changes in road crashes and fatalities associated with black drivers after the events to try to get at changes in driver behaviour.

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u/CaponeKevrone 13d ago

Why would a Trump rally change driving behaviors? And why would there be a corollary to an even larger uptick in stops in areas with significant racial violence during Jim Crow era?

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u/Fudgeyman 12d ago

I don't envy the mods here

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u/FistOfTheMagi 13d ago Facepalm

Most of the politically-charged studies posted here that get thousands+ comments are usually from low-tier journals; but this one is actually among the better ones. 19 Impact factor. These findings are probably credible.

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u/marker8050 13d ago

Yeah first thing i checked but this is the same journal that publishes Cambridge law studies

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u/MaintenanceSmart7223 13d ago

Not doubting the study but I would absolutely love to see how they measured "changes in driver behavior" to be able to discount it so easily. I'm at an absolute loss at how they'd go about it.

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u/bjminihan 13d ago

From https://repec.cepr.org/repec/cpr/ceprdp/DP15691.pdf:

We then analyze whether the change in the probability of a Black stop after a Trump
rally is due to a change in police or driver behavior. Using stop-level information on
collisions and speed radars as well as additional evidence from crash and fatality data, we
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find no evidence for a change in the racial composition of drivers or in driver behavior.
This suggests that the effect of Trump rallies is due to a change in law enforcement
behavior.

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u/p_cakes_ 13d ago

They used stop-level data on collisions and speed measured by radar guns, as well as county-day level data on overall collisions and traffic fatalities.

The paper is available here for free, and the intro is a pretty good non-technical summary:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/byqki64co2ircle/Trump_race_GMY_7June2022.pdf?dl=0

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u/judiciousjones 13d ago

It likely wanes somewhat linearly, and approximately 60 days is when it crosses the line to statistically insignificant. It's still there, but not readily discernable from statistical noise.

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u/Charming_Wulf 13d ago

Not being able to read the paper, my suspicion is that the observed increase is an average. So likely higher percentage closer to the rally and tapers out to the baseline by 60 days.

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u/champagnefrappe 13d ago

Does anybody have a link to the article that isn’t behind a paywall?

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u/sloopslarp 13d ago

Several people have posted paywall-free links.

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u/champagnefrappe 13d ago

My apologies! Just saw them—I commented a moment too early!

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u/Realhuman123gu 13d ago

I have a few questions for someone that can answer. I read the paper and the 35 million sample size seems to account for 1.4k counties, and not the 141 counties where a trump rally was held, with no mention of the sample size of the 141 counties in the given period. Is the 141 counties compared to the 35 million sample size to determine statistical changes or how does it work?

Is there a valid correlation between car crash fatalities and traffic stop frequency such that more fatalities = more traffic stops? If so how has this been shown previously?

I'm not trying to dismiss the article and i have no skin whatsoever in being an apologists for systematic racism nor do i have the educational background (my statistics class start in 2 weeks) to speak on the matter with any sort of authority, hence why i am asking for some clarification.

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u/SameOldiesSong 12d ago

Lots of commenters don’t seem to understand that the study didn’t merely say “hey look, black drivers are pulled over at a higher rate after Trump rallies what do you know? Our work here is done.”

The study controlled for a bunch of the factors people are suggesting and were still left with the uncomfortable statistic.

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u/Naxela 13d ago Silver Wholesome

Without data showing the direct cause is due to their race we only have correlations. There is a demand to demonstrate very clearly that the effect in play is racism, and the authors have gone out of their way to rule out several possibilities in order to give more plausibility to this explanation.

However, this shows one of the most poignant problems that exist in this type of social research: the lack of ability to perform an actual experiment that isolates the variables and can actually demonstrate causality. In studies like this, we can demonstrate that one element (a Trump rally) does indeed reliably predict an increase in a measure. That's all well in fine, but attempting to provide an explanation for this is only ever a hypothesis, not a proven mechanism. In the biological sciences, once we come up with a hypothesis, we then go about demonstrating "necessary" and "sufficient" contribution to the phenomenon in order to "prove" that x causes y. You can't do that here.

I take specific issue with this and other politically charged studies because they fit a particular sort of consummatory demand: that is to say, there is a public and academic interest to demonstrate a particular outcome as opposed to an alternative, in this case, a demand to show a particular narrative that implicates a demographic in the country for the grievances of a political group. This has the effect of choking potential avenues for peer review which are intended to be highly critical of any proposed conclusions drawn from a set of data, criticisms like I have made above. When there is a strong demand for a particular outcome (to make a comparison, like a confirmation of an existing model in say biology that many important figures in the field have staked their career on), bias creeps in and can prevent dissenting voices from being able to critically review their peer's work and find any potential details to scrutinize.

The peer review process is intentionally adversarial, and thus necessitates that those actively interested in opposing the conclusions drawn from your data have the ability to review it critically and offer in that environment their objections, to be taken or rejected as they will by the editors. For subject matters like this, I would contend this system does not exist. We already know that especially in social sciences, the number of professors who are oriented to the political left GREATLY outstrip those on the political right (1, 2, 3), and this in turn would lead to a bias to accept things that promote viewpoints held by the political left and reject criticism that would support the political right.

I make this criticism because even if the data analysis conducted by the researchers are thorough, a lack of adversarial review compromises the believeability of the study's construct validity. If the goal was merely to demonstrates that there is an association between x and y, this would not be a problem, but as both the authors and many of the people in the comments indicate, the goal goes further in attempting to not only claim that x causes y, but that this is evidence of the perniciousness that supports the authors (and the commenters) political opinions against their political opponents. The demand for a given result outstrips the ability of the field's methods to provide that conclusion.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago edited 12d ago Silver All-Seeing Upvote Bravo Grande!

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