r/worldnews Nov 25 '22

Luring pedophiles through fake online ads is not entrapment, Supreme Court says 🇨🇦

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/child-sex-offenders-online-ads-top-court-1.6662930
69.2k Upvotes

4.3k comments sorted by

2.5k

u/autotldr BOT Nov 25 '22

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 87%. (I'm a bot)


The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled that online police investigations targeting adults looking to have sex with children do not constitute police entrapment.

The ruling says that through investigations and interviews with dozens of underage sex workers, the York Regional Police learned that there was "a pervasive problem stemming from a particular type of online ad" on a subdirectory of Backpage.com and decided to target that website.

The ads police placed on the website were designed to emulate ads already on the site by borrowing common terms such as "Tight," "Young," "New" or "Fresh" when describing the children being offered, the court said.


Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: police#1 investigation#2 Court#3 ruled#4 sex#5

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u/YourMailThatsBurning Nov 25 '22

Fresh? Wtf

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u/lovesducks Nov 25 '22

You can probably guess why the subreddit named freshmodels was taken down

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u/OnlyOneReturn Nov 25 '22

I didn't even know that was a thing

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u/paperfett Nov 25 '22

That's because you're normal and didn't go looking for it. I had no idea it existed until it was just mentioned. I was thinking maybe it shouldn't be mentioned at all but weirdos are going to go find it anyways if they're looking for that sort of thing. Bringing attention to gross content is the only way to get rid of it.

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u/Original-Aerie8 Nov 25 '22

You do remember old reddit, right? Subs like jailbait were regularly on frontpage, it's not like you had any choice.

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u/smileybob93 Nov 25 '22

I remember being like 17/18 and would check out Jailbait. At 29 it's fucking disgusting.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

Older I get, less attracted to younger(18-25) people I get. I'm 32 and I reckon 25+ is the start of the peak, but I think 35-45 seems to be the most ideal range

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u/kpingvin Nov 25 '22

I remember when the adults said that those 30 something women were so hot and I as a kid was like "Eww, they're like my mum". Now they're "young women"

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u/MrMgP Nov 25 '22

I look at 18 years olds and all I think is 'that's just a kid'

Now I get how annoying it was when I, as an 18 year old, thought I was hot shit on the shop floor.

Sorry former colleagues

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u/inconspiciousdude Nov 25 '22

I, too, would like to apologize to former colleagues. Sometimes I cringe myself to sleep at night.

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u/Zikkan1 Nov 25 '22

It is so weird seeing all these "kids" working. I often think " no way that guy is old enough to work " then ask a friend and he tells me the dude is 19.

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u/ChrisTinnef Nov 25 '22

That's the normal development of sexual attraction for most people - your age of attraction ages with you aging.

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u/iamsecond Nov 25 '22

Leo would like a word

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u/cerealkiller454 Nov 25 '22

Dude I feel you. As I've gotten the slightest bit older, I'm finding myself checking out the teachers when I go to my kid's parent teacher conferences. Also all the moms at the daycare dropping their kids off. I think I'm officially in the milf stage of my life. Lol

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

I didn’t even know that r/jailbait was a thing until long after it was taken down. In retrospect I can’t fucking believe that it was ever allowed to exist in the first place.

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u/LeviathansPriest Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

A lot of the small nsfw niche subs are full of cp sellers. Report them and you just get a message back saying it doesn't violate the terms. Report enough and you get banned for harrassment. They get away with it because those subs have low activity and almost no mod presence so there's less people to report it

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u/DoctorIchigaki Nov 25 '22

You can probably guess why the subreddit named freshmodels was taken down...

I thought it was a sub dedicated to newly assembled Gundum kits.

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u/lovesducks Nov 25 '22

You'll probably want the totally cool, totally not involved in child trafficking r/gunpla

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u/Pyranze Nov 25 '22

lol. From the way you phrased it, I'm genuinely not sure if following that link will lead me to cool Gundam stuff or a police watchlist.

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u/warmhotdogsmoothie Nov 25 '22

That is so rough. Like in a vile, absolutely disgusting sort of way. I am definitely old enough to be well aware of some of the horrors of humanity but things involving children and sexual acts is next level awful and for communities to be so open about it in subreddits is just vulgar.

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u/Comfortable-Bad-7718 Nov 25 '22

It's really common in porn to refer to New models as "fresh" or to ones who turned 18 as "fresh"

Definitely nasty

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u/zorrodood Nov 25 '22

That makes Splatoon a bit awkward.

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u/PanicAK Nov 25 '22

You know, like Jared from Subway.

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u/Rare-Faithlessness32 Nov 25 '22

Putting a whole new meaning to “Eat Fresh.”

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u/CrikeyMikeyLikey Nov 25 '22

I was going to make a joke, but even with a twisted sense of humor I couldn't commit.

Fuck pedophiles.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/Sichiri Nov 25 '22

Fresh Prince Of Bel-Air just got a whole different meaning now.

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u/dikkemoarte Nov 25 '22

Keep your DICK out of my fucking MOUTH!!!

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u/LordoftheSynth Nov 25 '22

Uncle Phil just smacked the SHIT out of me!

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/H4xolotl Nov 25 '22

"Tight Prince Of Bel-Air"

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u/No_Hour_1809 Nov 25 '22

the children being offered

Is a sentence I never thought I'd read

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u/pironic Nov 25 '22

the children being offered ...

... Ice cream were happier than the children being offered spicy chicken wings.

There. Not so bad.

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u/Ok-Opportunity-574 Nov 25 '22

"The ads police placed on the website were designed to emulate ads already on the site by borrowing common terms such as "tight," "young," "new" or "fresh" when describing the children being offered, the court said."

Small quibble with that statement. The initial ads stated they were for ADULTS. It should be "when describing the adults being offered" or similar.

It was only after they had already taken the bait that it was switched to an underage girl. This is common practice for the sex traffickers as well though. The police made it very clear that the man was showing up expecting to rape a child. It wasn't sprung on them last second. They had plenty of time to back out. That's why it isn't entrapment.

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u/Telemere125 Nov 25 '22

Fairly similar to how they do it in the US too. The police pose on adult-only meeting sites and then tell the target they’re underage and try to get them to admit they’re still looking to have sex and then to meet up. Most places, just using the computer and/or traveling to the meeting site is itself illegal

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u/OG_Chatterbait Nov 25 '22

There was a guy on TCaP, who met the decoy in a role-playing chat room. I wonder if with a good enough lawyer he could get off on it claiming that he thought it was part of the role-play.

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u/imwalkinhyah Nov 25 '22

Someone in Washington state got off on this exact defense iirc in the last major sting. The officer used her real pictures and the guy claimed that he thought she was role-playing because there was no way someone could mistake her for a minor lmao

I'm pretty sure there were other problems with the way the stings were performed iirc bc other people they caught didn't go to prison for various reasons

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u/LordDongler Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

That's actually perfectly reasonable though

Edit: this is why dumb people shouldn't be police. Role play is not real

Trying to ban any kind of role play is like trying to ban movies. Sure, someone died in the movie, but the actor is still alive, right there. You say that even pretending to commit such a heinous act should be illegal and that those actors are clearly just serial killer waiting for victims? Fuck off

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u/xXDarthCognusXx Nov 25 '22

Meanwhile in ancient Roman theatre: killing criminals on stage for better immersion

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u/kaenneth Nov 25 '22

In washington state it is specifically illegal to use real kids in any manner in sex stings. (but still OK to send in a kid to buy cigarettes in a sting)

Now with AI pictures, be sure to count the fingers on your potential dates.

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u/langlo94 Nov 25 '22

Makes sense though, you really don't want to send an actual child to someone planning to rape that kid. Buying cigarettes is comparatively harmless.

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u/boomburger Nov 25 '22

If its the same guy I'm thinking of, he was let off because his lawyer asked for the group responsible for the sting to hand over their hard drives and they refused.

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u/Un7n0wn Nov 25 '22

As far as I know, fictionally under age characters can't prove a suspect is a pedo, but it really doesn't help their case. Not to mention even being suspected of being a peso often make people targets of vigilante justice, and will often ruin your life.

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u/_163 Nov 25 '22

People from Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Mexico, Phillipines and Uruguay in shambles.

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u/BuddyJayPee Nov 25 '22

Damn, better hide my Pesos

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u/ElectricFlesh Nov 25 '22

Can we do the same thing but with politicians to see whether they're corrupt and willing to accept bribes?

But I guess that would DEFINITELY be entrapment then.

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u/Telemere125 Nov 25 '22

The FBI actually did exactly that in 1980 with ABSCAM. Entrapment means the police convinced you to do something you otherwise wouldn’t have, not just that they gave you the opportunity.

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u/AssociationDouble267 Nov 25 '22

The Supreme Court of Canada. As in, not the US Supreme Court. Probably relevant

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u/Gemmabeta Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

An investigation by York Regional Police [York being a region immediately to the north of Toronto, Ontario] called Project Raphael ran from 2014 to 2017. It involved undercover police officers posing as teenaged escorts on a website they suspected of being a hub for the sexual exploitation of children.

Undercover officers posted ads offering the opportunity to have sex with an 18-year-old girl. Once the fictitious girl agreed to have sex with an individual, the undercover officer posing as the girl would then reveal that she was actually as young as 14.

Those who agreed to continue with the transaction were directed to a hotel room. All 104 men who showed up at the hotel room were arrested.

The men charged ranged in age from 18 to 71. Many of the men were married and they came from a range of professional backgrounds. Nearly all of the men were first-time offenders.

To people who keep asking, the Canadian law in question here is:

(2) Everyone who, in any place, obtains for consideration, or communicates with anyone for the purpose of obtaining for consideration, the sexual services of a person under the age of 18 years is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than 10 years and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of

(a) for a first offence, six months; and

(b) for each subsequent offence, one year.

In other words, communication for the purposes of purchasing sex from a child under 18 (with money or other goods/services) is A) already a crime, and B) the age of the person doing the soliciting does not matter.

And according to the Supreme Court of Canada, what the police did is not entrapment as:

Writing for a unanimous Court, Justice Andromache Karakatsanis said Project Raphael was a bona fide inquiry because “police had reasonable suspicion in a space defined with sufficient precision”. The space was the particular type of ads within the York Region escort subdirectory of Backpage.com that emphasized the sex worker’s youth. She also said that the offences police provided the opportunity to commit “were rationally connected and proportionate” to the offences they suspected were occurring in that space.

In other words, 1) There is valid and well-substantiated suspicion that the website is engaged in child trafficking, 2) the ads the police placed are highly targeted at people who were specifically looking for child prostitutes, 3) that the police only offered opportunities to commit the crime that they specifically suspected was already happening on the website without their intervention. Basically, the question the court is debating is more of a procedural thing about how wide of a net the police can cast to "trawl" for criminals.

Notably, the court didn't even mention the other entrapment defense (i.e. coercion: the police going beyond providing an opportunity and inducing the commission of an offence) because no one brought that one up. As it was quite obvious to everyone involved that it would not fly in this particular case.

https://decisions.scc-csc.ca/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/19555/index.do

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u/anothertrad Nov 25 '22

“You’re giving me quite a… STRETCH!”

“Ok book ‘em boys!”

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u/Dalehan Nov 25 '22

"FREEEEEEEEZE! Hah, you're busted buddy, I'm a cop!"

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u/MikeRivalheli Nov 25 '22

Nearly all of the men were first-time offenders.

Caught first time offenders.

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u/TheLaughingMelon Nov 25 '22

Everyone is a a first time offended when they get caught

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u/TurtleHermit360 Nov 25 '22

Wow police officers that are also young teenagers, so cool for them to have careers so early on, those pedos must be super impressed.

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u/Hopeful-Sir-2018 Nov 25 '22

At 19 I still looked 14, so I can see it. I was tiny to the point teachers asked if I was malnourished parents feeding me. I was eating as much as I wanted. My metabolism was just insane and I also did gymanstics so I was very lean.

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u/Sence Nov 25 '22

I had a coworker who at 32 fucking years old was asked by an airline employee if she was an unaccompanied minor.....

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u/wild_man_wizard Nov 25 '22

People thought my mom was my girlfriend when she took me out to dinner for my 15th birthday.

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u/Mindraker Nov 25 '22

I've been stopped by a cop on the street who was young enough to be my son.

"Why aren't you in school?"

Yeah, this gets old.

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u/the_gready Nov 25 '22

But you sure don’t!

I’ll see myself out

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u/beardicusmaximus8 Nov 25 '22

One of my teachers loved to tell a story about how when she was in high school they had an undercover officer who was 23 and passed for a high schooler for two years as part of an investigation. Like, he went to school and just acted the part of a teenager, nobody had any suspicions he was a adult.

(For reference he was 21 when the investigation started)

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u/sniff3 Nov 25 '22

That is just the plot of 21 Jump Street.

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u/HerrStarrEntersChat Nov 25 '22

Where were you really the past two days, Clive?

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u/CromulentJohnson Nov 25 '22

Did he infiltrate the dealers and find the suppliers?

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u/Ardent_Gunner Nov 25 '22

Do we one strap or two strap?

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u/Ninja1Assassin Nov 25 '22

Was his name Jeff?

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u/akujiki87 Nov 25 '22

I heard his next case was at college and he just did the same exact thing as before.

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u/FeelinLikeACloud420 Nov 25 '22

Having an undercover officer in a high school is messed up, to put it politely. But I'm gonna guess this was probably in the US, in which case I'm not surprised. At one point they used an undercover agent to frame an autistic student into doing a drug deal so it seems the standard is really low. Vice also made a video covering that story.

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u/knullsmurfen Nov 25 '22

Well that is fucked up on a gut wrenching level. What kind of Stalinist shit is that!?

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u/QualifiedApathetic Nov 25 '22

I'm a guy, but I got taken for as young as 15 when I was 25. I have a friend in her late 20s, still has people think she's too young to be a waitress.

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u/Hopeful-Sir-2018 Nov 25 '22

On the flip side my 13 year old was allowed in a fucking bar and drank because she looked old enough. I had a car salesman mistake her for my wife because I had to pick her up from school. I wish I were joking. I'm now much older so...... let's assume they thought she was 21. That's still, literally, half my age and then some. And it wasn't like the dude was shy about it either. O_O

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u/comegetinthevan Nov 25 '22

Oof this reminds me of a memory I had repressed. Back in college my then girlfriend and I went out to eat with my roommate and his girlfriend. The waitress thought my roommate and his girlfriend were our parents and went so far as to bring fucking crayons for my girlfriend. Everyone was mortified, our age gaps between each other were only a few years and everyone was in college. I think it hit the girls the hardest. The waitress thought one was old enough to have older kids and thought the other was young enough to need crayons.

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u/greycubed Nov 25 '22

Only one Court can truly be Supreme.

Find out which in next week's episode of Battledome.

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u/Gemmabeta Nov 25 '22

TWO COURTS ENTER, ONE COURT LEAVES.

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u/Dangerous--D Nov 25 '22

WATCH NEXT WEEK'S EPISODE TO FIND OUT WHICH COURT...

RULES

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u/Real-Baby-Seal Nov 25 '22

SHOW ME WHAT YOU GOT

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u/Storyteller-Hero Nov 25 '22

"One shall stand, one shall fall."

~ Optimus Prime

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

“AND HERE COMES KETANJIA BROWN JACKSON WITH THE CHAIR!”

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u/bootychasinmason Nov 25 '22

They need to bring Battledome back. Thanks for the nostalgia trip!

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

As a Canadian let me tell you that a large number of Canadians have trouble making the distinction too at times

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u/SilentIntrusion Nov 25 '22

It fucking hurts, doesn't it?

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u/degenerateautist69 Nov 25 '22

It’s not entrapment in the US either. Entrapment is when an individual is convinced to commit a crime they wouldn’t normally do. Using fake ads to target suspected criminals is luring them into doing something they would normally do, given the context.

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u/mindbleach Nov 25 '22

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u/goingnorthwest Nov 25 '22

Darn phones. What's the alt text on this one?

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u/Shitty_Life_Coach Nov 25 '22

Alt Text: Later, walking out of jail after posting $10,000 bail: "Wait, this isn't the street the county jail is on."

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u/shotgunocelot Nov 25 '22

If you're on Android, you can just long press the image to get the alt text

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u/Heinous____Anus Nov 25 '22

If it was entrapment in the US, they wouldn't have made a reality show out of it.

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u/Vin-Metal Nov 25 '22

Why don’t you take a seat over there?

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u/Admiral_Boombox Nov 25 '22

It can still be entrapment, the crux is that the perp needs to agree to participate with no force applied.

If you'd snare a pedo by pushing the issue on your own accord after they've taken distance, or threaten to blackmail them to get them present, sadly it can then no longer be fully proven that the creep would've committed a crime of their own volition. A lot of those demons walked free because you can't try someone twice for the same crime and the vigilantes pushed their trap too long or aggressively, and unless killed on the spot, will now be more vigilant and difficult to catch, making the job of officials trying to stop them more difficult.

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u/JPBillingsgate Nov 25 '22

Correct, and the entire transcript of the conversations between the undercover officer(s) and the perp would 100% be Brady material at trial. It is certainly possible that certain elements of the conversation could have crossed the line into entrapment. However, these officers who do this sort of ICAC/human trafficking work know the line well and will rarely, if ever cross it.

Scenario A: Perp agrees to meet an 18-yo prostitute at a hotel and is told at the last minute that the pros is actually 14. Perp agrees to go through with it anyway with little to no hesitation. No entrapment here at all. The perp is off to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Scenario B: Same, except this time when perp is advised that the pros is 14 he says he has to think about it and ends the conversation. The cops then continue to hound him over a period of time asking if he is still interested, etc. Perhaps they even send some doctored nudes to the guy, "I want you sooooo bad!", etc. Eventually, after several additional proactive communications from the undercover officer, the guy finally agrees. He shows up and gets arrested.

That's entrapment.

Between Scenario A and Scenario B is a gray area.

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u/enwongeegeefor Nov 25 '22

Back when Perverted Justice started, they'd post transcripts of the "pedos" they'd supposedly caught online to show people how depraved they were. The reality is that what PJ was doing was pure entrapment because they were "roleplaying" as a child and they were saying some really sick shit from the outset, anything to "get the pedos to admit it," in their words. Of course this borked any chance of any kind of conviction and I don't believe they got ANY early convictions of people (the only evidence of them getting convictions is on their own website and it's censored so bad it's not proof). Also, based on those early chats I would DEFINITELY say that the people involved in PJ are pedos too.

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u/SexualPie Nov 25 '22

However, these officers who do this sort of ICAC/human trafficking work know the line well and will rarely, if ever cross it.

you will never convince me that police officers know when to not cross the line.

hell, crossing the line is basically what they're best at.

unless the line is the entrance to a school with an active shooter

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u/SillyPhillyDilly Nov 25 '22

That's not necessarily true. Entrapment first only applies to government officials, so private groups are free from that specific barrier. It shifts over to whether or not the offending party has been coerced to do something, and it's a high bar to show that you were following through under coercion for an act you were originally intent on doing. Second, the court does consider your predisposition with these defenses. If you were more likely than not to do something, and evidence of that can be taken directly from the events in question, you're kinda fucked.

Only a few people got off free from these stings, and I can't currently find any who used successful entrapment or coercion defenses.

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u/Somepotato Nov 25 '22

I really, really hate the whole 'private party' thing in the US. It's incredibly abused; the police are given so much freedom if under the guise of a "it wasnt us/the government, but someone we hired!", the same system allowing them to have warrantless access to all of our private data and access to neighborhood doorbell cameras.

As much as I loathe pedophiles/ephebophiles, I wonder how slippery of a slope this can become.

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u/MultiEthnicBusiness Nov 25 '22

Hundreds of men have been convicted by Chris Hansen's stings, I don't think 1 ever successfully argued entrapment. The ones who got off were mostly from the Texas episode where the assistant DA killed himself so they didn't follow through with the charges and a couple others whose lawyers requested the chat logs from the decoy group and they failed to submit them, claiming their servers were destroyed.

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u/Malvania Nov 25 '22

Eh, it's pretty well established to not be entrapment in the US. In the US, entrapment needs some sort of coercive effect. Doing someone you'd have been willing to do anyway doesn't count

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u/1lluminist Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

I'm all for this, but I really wanna know where the line is drawn. Is this excusing honeypotting in general? Does this only apply to sex offenders and pedos?

[EDIT] I guess this is the important part of the article:

Undercover officers posted ads offering the opportunity to have sex with an 18-year-old girl. Once the fictitious girl agreed to have sex with an individual, the undercover officer posing as the girl would then reveal that she was actually as young as 14.

So it was kind of a bait-and-switch but they all knew what they were doing. It wasn't a case of them just getting busted for visiting the site itself or anything.

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u/TheSoldierFlash Nov 25 '22

I'm sceptical it can be managed by the police in a way that doesn't let some of them target innocent people on purpose. It just seems like a very slippery slope.

In Australia we had a terrorist task force called the fixated persons unit targeting an Australian comedian because his coworker approached a politician and tried to talk to him along with said comedian talking smack about that politician. The unit was originally made after a terror attack in a coffee shop iirc and it was made to specifically combat such events. A politician was using the taskforce as his own private police.

Not to say it's entirely the same situation or that it would end up in a similar place but just like this task force, no one in the general populace would suspect a pedo catching police unit of any wrongdoing. What's to stop them from faking internet logs or just flat out lying to boost their success numbers, or incriminate those they don't like or are told to do.

Most critically I think, does this even solve anything? To me, this is a 'catch the drug user instead of the drug dealer' situation. Yes obviously the pedo is way more at fault here than a drug user, but they're nowhere near as at fault as those who traffic the children and I think that should be where all the polices attention should be.

No idea if my take is a good one but I don't think this is just an open shut situation.

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u/PmMe_Your_Perky_Nips Nov 25 '22

Supposedly once a mark reaches out to the undercover that's when it's revealed the ad is for a minor sex worker. This gives the mark the option to walk away before a crime has actually been committed. In theory innocent people don't go past that point. They just stop communication and move on. Ideally they also report the ad to the police.

Catching traffickers is much harder than catching Johns. Even if you manage to rescue one of their victims, the victim will likely stay quiet out of fear for their life, their family's lives, or the lives of friends still being trafficked.

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u/eastcoastdude Nov 25 '22

Seems clear to me.

  1. Police have escort advertisement for an 18 year old sex worker

  2. Person willingly contact them for sex

  3. During exchange Police reveal sex worker is actually 14.

  4. Person doesn't say WTF but chooses to proceed with agreement to meet for sex.

  5. Police arrest Person

If you read the legal definition of entrapment its clear this doesn't meet that and I'm happy the Supreme Court now made it clear these guys won't get off on a technicality.

BTW, No. 1 seems to happen quite a bit IRL, I'm subbed to r/tinder for the comedy of it and you see quite a lot of people post a profile of a girl who claims she's 18 then reveals she's actually 16 or something in the DMs. The guys who post there always say "talk to you in 3 years" or something similar but you know some don't.

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u/memento_mori_1220 Nov 25 '22

Canada also does Mr.Big police stings which is illegal in USA. What is a Mr.Big police sting? There is no one person who portrays Mr. Big, rather, police create an imaginary criminal gang to trick homicide suspects into a confession. “Mr. Big” is the top boss who requires the prospective gang member to come clean of his offences so that he can make them '”go away” and it leads to a lot of false arrests of people trying to get into gangs which will say anything to get in

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u/Tango-range Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

We do indeed (and they are extremely problematic). If anyone's interested, this article briefly outlines the history of the practice, the problems with it, and the how the Supreme Court made Mr. Big confessions presumptively inadmissable in R. v. Hart.

This article is also very interesting, as a long form look at a botched Mr. Big.

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u/Nice-Violinist-6395 Nov 25 '22

I fucking love when people in the comments pull out multiple entire full length articles that contribute to the conversation lol

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u/OG_Chatterbait Nov 25 '22

So they create a gang leader. Get a guy they're interested in to want to join that gang. Then the pretend gang leader says "tell me the crimes you committed and I'll fix them for you". And they believe that?

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u/bombur432 Nov 25 '22

It’s a bit more involved than that, but yes that’s usually the basics. These things can be months or even years long commitments, involving dozens of people (actors and such), and are usually a gradual buildup to getting some form of confession, often in a fabricated “flashpoint” scenario (like, the ‘boss’ needs some info as insurance, or such.)

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u/ThatsAnEgoThing Nov 25 '22

Yeah that's pretty sketchy

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u/ngwoo Nov 25 '22

Especially when they use it to essentially groom mentally handicapped people into becoming criminals when they otherwise never would have been, which they have done.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

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u/Port-aux-Francais Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

Except in Canada it does hold up. If done right.

Edit: I should add that sometimes the confession to “Mr. Big” includes information that only the actual perpetrator could know, so there is some assurance that it is not a false confession.

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u/Attackoftheglobules Nov 25 '22

They did it here in Australia to catch a notorious child murderer and rapist. There’s a very interesting book called “The Sting” that covers it. A full crime syndicate was set up

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u/Jackee_Daytona Nov 25 '22

That's how my father's murderer was caught, and as such, acquited (or mistrial? I get confused about that part) and then able to successfully sue for a million dollars.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

Jesus man that sucks.

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u/MarkHirsbrunner Nov 25 '22

This is the plot of the 2022 Australian movie "The Stranger," it was really good

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u/ladyofthegarbage Nov 25 '22

I recently watched a documentary about this and it reminded me of the way they did things on Burn Notice

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u/memento_mori_1220 Nov 25 '22

Yea I saw same one it’s fucked up tbh

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u/Luck_Is_My_Talent Nov 25 '22

This is fine.

Those who have sexual attraction for children should go to mental care, those that accept an offer for sex from a child should go behind the bars.

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u/BoujeeHoosier Nov 25 '22

You’d have to remove a lot of stigma before anyone would admit attraction to children let alone seek help. Know someone who literally was driving children around drunk and the whole family berated a 17 year old in their family that had nudes of a 16 year old on their phone calling them a pedo. If someone did admit to having the issue they’d immediately lose their whole family no matter if they committed a crime or sought help before doing so.

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u/TheSackLunchBunch Nov 25 '22

Having a problem with a 17 year old having nudes of a 16 year old sounds like a bunch of 30+ year olds with zero ability to grasp and apply context. And projection out the ass. That’s gotta be an inability to put oneself in another’s shoes/empathize.

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u/ReadyThor Nov 25 '22

sounds like a bunch of 30+ year olds with zero ability to grasp and apply context

That's more than half of the voting population in most countries.

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u/BoujeeHoosier Nov 25 '22

I agree but that’s exactly how people act around anyone with this sort of issue. Even in this case where there is nothing predator about it the family reacted much more harshly toward the “perv” than the drunk idiot driving children around.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

In Germany, we had a tv-adds "kein-täter-werden" (Do not become a perpetrator). Which advertised therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevention_Project_Dunkelfeld

And it did a lot in terms of acceptance and even respect for pedophiles, who never committed any crime despite their sexual desires. Even popular YouTubers made videos about them, interviewing them etc. A few even showed their faces.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

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u/fillytopper Nov 25 '22

Jesus Christ. First time I've seen anyone on reddit call for them getting help to not offend and not immediately calling for them to get locked up (for essential l a thought crime) or killed on the spot.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

It’s something to think about. I don’t think people just decide to be pedophiles. Definitely a mental health issue. Anyone who’s abused children should burn in hell. But there’s definitely a lot of them out there that has it, hasn’t acted on it, and could benefit from treatment.

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u/__01001000-01101001_ Nov 25 '22

Agreed, which is why it’s so fucked up that there’s no proactive help programs. Germany is the only country in the world that offers support to people attracted to minors prior to conviction.

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u/Somepotato Nov 25 '22

I hate how on board people are with "put in a box, throw away the key" instead of preventing it in the first place.

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u/181Cade Nov 25 '22

Exactly, people claim that they are disgusted because of the idea of children being harmed. But it that was true they would want these people to get help.

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u/Razakel Nov 25 '22

I'm starting to think it's voyeurism. People actually get a kick out of outrage porn like true crime documentaries. And child abusers are acceptable to hate, even among criminals.

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u/PinkTalkingDead Nov 25 '22

In the US, the therapists and doctors that seek to help pedophiles not act on their urges, get victimized and bullied out of employment (in many cases)

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u/montananightz Nov 25 '22

There are sex addiction treatment programs and therapists (here in the US anyways) that one could go to, but they (probably?) aren't government funded programs. Which yes, is a shame. These people should get the help they need to lead moral, productive lives.

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u/medstudenthowaway Nov 25 '22

From what we learned in medical school there aren’t proactive help programs because there isn’t effective treatment. If a patient came to me asking for help because they’re attracted to children I wouldn’t know how to help them.

Here’s an article about how Germany does it. Super interesting imo

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u/Stercore_ Nov 25 '22

In norway there have been ads recently on yt aimed at getting pedophiles to seek treatment rather than to act on their desires. It’s a good thing of course but damn is it annoying getting those ads lmao

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u/rammo123 Nov 25 '22

You probably shouldn't be watching all those child beauty pageant videos then ;)

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u/Etheo Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

It's honestly weird af that in a country where pedophiles are so vilified and abhored they are also completely fine with celebrating prepubescent attractiveness in grandiose fashion on broadcast TV. Fucking mind boggling.

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u/IAmTheFlyingIrishMan Nov 25 '22

Ladies and Gentlemen, we got 'em.

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u/Lopsided_Pizza3717 Nov 25 '22

.... uh... I really hope you don’t have personalized ads on

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u/AC2BHAPPY Nov 25 '22

I have been getting ads to set up my funeral early which had been creeping me out

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u/Lopsided_Pizza3717 Nov 25 '22

December 26, 2022 16:30:29

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u/Stercore_ Nov 25 '22

I don’t. They just happen to be one of the few norwegian specific advertisers, and so i get them sometimes. The only other norwegian ad i can remember of the top of my head is a samsung ad for the new flip 4, and an ad for a real shitty looking gambling app that is as scammy as can be that somehow still is around despite me reporting it at every oppurtunity

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u/cmdrhlm Nov 25 '22

I’ve seen those on the subway. It’s weird seeing them but it’s a good thing I guess.

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u/Sharrakor Nov 25 '22

I don’t think people just decide to be pedophiles.

"You know, I feel like turning myself into the type of person that your average joe wouldn't have any qualms about curbstomping and who can never, ever legally have what they want. Wish me luck!"

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u/ppenn777 Nov 25 '22

More people need to be vocal about this. It has always been my belief. We shouldn’t damn people for their thoughts rather try to figure out why those thoughts happen and find a cure. If they act, then of course huge punishment, but agreed there’s probably a lot of people struggling with this and we should figure out to help/prevent this.

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u/random_impiety Nov 25 '22

I knew a guy who was an open pedophile. He claimed to have never acted on it and was never accused of anything, and I believe it. But he was very open about being sexually attracted to preadolescent boys.

Very intelligent and articulate guy. I learned a lot from him. He was an interesting guy. Not someone I'd want to be friends with and he threw people under the bus when it suited him, but a very interesting person to talk to.

He had strategies for managing his predilections, and he very wisely never put himself in a situation where something might happen. I think being so open about his desires was actually an intentionally and useful strategy, because if something did happen to a young boy, he'd be an easy suspect. By being open about it, he's kind of putting himself into a position where he has to keep himself out of trouble.

The guy gave me a lot to think about, and though I thought he was a weird fellow in a number of ways, I never felt an emotional urge that said "this guy needs to be punished" or anything like that.

But I met a bunch of people who did feel exactly that. People who supposedly are very progressive and believe the criminal system in this country is super fucked, and believe in compassionate rehabilitation instead.

One person I know actually contacted the FBI and the police and told them both as much as they knew about the guy.

I do happen to know at least some of these people suffered various forms of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse as kids, so I'm sure this played a role.

But yeah, they really wanted to inflict pain on this man for thoughts and urges that have origins beyond his control. He literally did all the things he needed to do as someone with pedophilic feelings--he had strategies to manage it that worked for him for 50 something years; he had therapists throughout much of his life to whom he was open about it; he was very open about it in general with people he knew, keeping a spotlight on himself; and he ran with a fairly weird and open-minded crowd (which is how I came to work with him). But they wanted him to be punished and locked away anyway.

I could see this if he'd ever acted on his urges. But by everything anyone could tell, he'd never done anything.

It really made me start thinking about other people differently. All of if--this guy, other people like him (in various ways), and about people who wanted bad things to happen to him because of the way he was.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

Yeah, I think people tend to get a little too emotional and pretty much equate "pedophile" with "child rapist", if not straight up serial killer, which is really not the same thing. Same for zoophiles.

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u/Knife-yWife-y Nov 25 '22

From what I understand, victims of child abuse are more likely to commit sexual abuse. That's why getting professional help for victims is also essential.

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u/starvetheplatypus Nov 25 '22

I listened to an interesting podcast with a guy who said that a lot of the pedophiles in Germany had groups, those who acted and those who were being helped with their attraction they didn't choose. I guess some people are attracted at a young age and whatever mechanism that engages to tell them to be attracted to people their own age doesn't engage and as they get older they stay attracted to the same age group. Some of them had trauma and were simply stuck being attracted to the age of person they were attracted to when it happened. The people who had acted on it were called peadocriminals and pedophiles really hated being mixed up with the peadocriminals as they were putting in the effort to manage their problem and not cause any harm. Disclaimer: I have 2 daughters, and as a means of harm reduction I fully support people seeking help and would like to see those channels opened to people who are afflicted and don't actually want to cause harm. I'm also a random dummy on the internet and am fallible so maybe I'm misguided

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u/Zonz4332 Nov 25 '22

Pedophilia was actually labeled as a sexual orientation around the time of the original release of the dsm 5. The authors say it was “a mistake”, but the real reason the label was changed I believe was because civil rights activists felt it insulted the lgbt rights movement, and normalized paraphiliac behavior - when in actuality sexual orientation as a medical term was only meant as a positive statement.

Pedophilia has been shown to be unchangeable and not learned. For all intents and purposes, it is an orientation, and that’s important to recognize because it guides on how we assess treatment options.

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u/SEND-MARS-ROVER-PICS Nov 25 '22

It should be said, that the LGBT community wasn't coming of the blue with their demands. The equating of pedophilia and being gay has a long history, and has done a hige amount of harm to the LGBT community. Shit, it's still going on today (Tim Pool's groomer shit, the Club Q shooting).

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u/total_egglipse Nov 25 '22

Adding to this. Pedophilic behavior can also happen in a person that isn’t a “pedophile”. Some people think grown adults are hot, but also fetishize children. People can absolutely grow a paraphilia around children or animals. It’s easy with the access of online porn to go from fairly vanilla domination to increasingly extreme and taboo subjects. It’s hard to separate such people.

Also, Pedophiles have exceptionally high comorbidity rate as well with both Axis I and II disorders. At least, from things I’ve read. This is also why other sexualities don’t want to include pedophiles - because besides the obvious, there is strong evidence which ties it to mental illness.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

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u/Luck_Is_My_Talent Nov 25 '22

Weird, I thought that what I wrote is common sense. Nobody should be punished due to what they think, but for the harm they cause.

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u/CambriaKilgannonn Nov 25 '22

If I was sentenced for what I thought in traffic i'd never see the light of day

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u/rammo123 Nov 25 '22

I'm a thought war criminal.

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u/dutch_penguin Nov 25 '22

Are you saying you're a trafficker!?!

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u/A_lot_of_arachnids Nov 25 '22

There are subs on reddit where you'd be treated as if you were a pedophile yourself for even mentioning that. I absolutely agree with you. But I've seen people get death threats in other subs for saying the same thing. People are crazy.

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u/A_lot_of_arachnids Nov 25 '22

Saw a thread the other day where someone presented that idea. Seemed like a reasonable idea. He was downvoted to death and repeatedly called a pedophile by multiple people. Apparently some believe it's instant death for people attracted to children even when they are trying to get help. Yeah they suck and have a sick mental problem that should be treated before it gets worse. But no let's scare them into never getting help and eventually hurting someone.

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u/whaaatanasshole Nov 25 '22

It bothers me how often people conflate the term 'pedophile' with 'child rapist'. I don't know if you can cure pedophilia, but it's gotta take some fucking guts to ask for help.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

Lol ive been arguing for this position online for YEARS and have been called a pedophile/pedo supporter more times than i can count. glad to see public opinion finally shifting

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u/Wookie301 Nov 25 '22

I mean if you can admit you have a problem you can’t control , and seek out help of any kind. I think that should be encouraged. No matter what the issue is. You don’t want people who haven’t offended, to just sit on those thoughts privately until they do act upon them.

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u/phormix Nov 25 '22

I totally agree that they should seek help, but I've also never heard of any services offering such (not something I really want to Google though).

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u/AttackTurbines Nov 25 '22

Yeah. I’m sure there are a lot of Peds out there who know that their inner thoughts are fucked up/ wrong / etc, but are so so worried that even if they talk to a mental health professional about it they’re going to get judged or put on some secret police list (and they very well might).

The question becomes, is there any real “treatment” for such a thing? Or just support systems?

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u/tengma8 Nov 25 '22

was literally having a reddit argument on this topic two days ago.

The question becomes, is there any real “treatment” for such a thing? Or just support systems?

the general agreement is that "conversion therapy" for pedophiles does not work, ie you can't make a pedophile start to have sexual desires for adult instead of children.

most therapies focus on "harm reduction", which is to help a pedophile deal with their desires in a way that causes no harm.

in some cause hormone reduction, medicine is also used, mostly to pedophiles who had committed a crime.

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u/JauneMagalora Nov 25 '22

Pedophiles against child sexual abuse/CSEM are called ACNO-Pedophiles. Basically "Anti-Contact Non Offending."

Since pedophilia is technically a sexual orientation, conversion therapy would not work. The only treatment for paraphilic disorder (different from pedophilia) would be therapy to help with their anxiety around their attraction, not the attraction itself.

But, yes. The stigma definitely does not help people with paraphilias especially with the term peodphile being wrongly synonymous with child sexual abuser.

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u/sonoma4life Nov 25 '22

here's the problem, we don't run ads for mental care for pedophilia. i see more "shoot your local pedophile" than anything related to therapy for it.

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u/lifeofideas Nov 25 '22

I hope a similar strategy is used to identify politicians and law enforcement officers willing to take money to break laws and betray the public trust.

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u/the_fungible_man Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

In the U.S. it was done by the FBI back in 1978-1980. They snagged 1 U.S. Senator and 6 members of the U.S. House of Representatives taking bribes from "Arab businessmen". A number of state and local officials in Philadelphia and New Jersey were also convicted. A few officials were offered bribes and declined.

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u/EnergyCells Nov 25 '22

And then the house of representatives made it illegal for the FBI to do that again lol

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u/notoyrobots Nov 25 '22

The house of represenatives can't do anything by itself.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

I get the impression that pedophilia is a lot more common than we tend to think it is, is there any way to estimate such a thing when it’s clearly a topic that people are unlikely to speak up about?

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u/RefrigeratorTheGreat Nov 25 '22

Anonymous surverys, but then you’d have to assume everyone is speaking truthfully.

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u/Enunimes Nov 25 '22

"Hey, want to take this survey on your views about pedophilia? It's 100% anonymous and I am totally NOT a Canadian police officer"

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u/Alpineodin Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

have had this conversation with my brother aswell lol.

countdowns to teen stars turning 18?

the most subscribed tiktok star was a teenage girl who would dance in swimwear and/ or to provocative songs

the "just turned 18" porn trends

bhad bhabie only fans "just turned 18" pulling in millions of dollars in the first 24 hours

the entire Epstein thing lmao.

youtubers preying on their underage fans

i think because its undesirable topic to discuss/study/interact with that society just brushes it under the rug and tries to just move on. but i'd honestly reckon like 20% of the population would be.

even need to ask yourself "does someone NOT do this because they don't want to, or because society says not to"

pretty sure there was a study or small research thingy that asked people to see if the person they showed was attractive/gave them an erection or something, and the %'s were pretty much like "yeah this pretty common" lmao. ill try to find it. something along the lines of using "phallometric testing" to judge their reactions via blood flow to the genitals.

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u/Gr0ode Nov 25 '22

We are not special. It‘s not far fetched to think that we are attracted to bodies as soon as we percieve them to be able to reprodcue. It’s like that in the animal kingdom and we are no exception. The fucked up part is the mental gap in todays society, what do you even want from a child except that it‘s easy to manipulate. I don‘t think that being attracted to 16 y/o bodies is that abnormal though and for that reason I think that phallometric testing is completely idiotic.

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u/Majormlgnoob Nov 25 '22

Pedophilia is explicitly the attraction to pre pubescent children

Finding 17 year olds physically attractive isn't that, though countdowns are definitely sus and you're still sexualizing a minor

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u/BlinkysaurusRex Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

Well, I believe what limited data that exists suggests that a significant percentage of offenders are categorised as “opportunistic” predators who simply get off on power and control who aren’t necessarily sexually attracted to underage teenagers and children. Versus actual pedophiles who are sexually attracted to them. So you’d have to factor that in.

But I do think you’re right, I think there’s a frightening amount more of them that arrest rates would suggest. The amount of activity on dark web websites. But going past even that, how many have this psychological issue, but are otherwise sensible and responsible individuals who just suck it up and go on silently all the way to their grave. There surely has to be closet pedophiles. Probably brushed shoulders with some without ever knowing.

I’m not sure I’d want to know how many there are.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

Reddit too. Remember those I just turned [18] on gone wild? There wasn't even any kind of verification back then.

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u/Alpineodin Nov 25 '22

reddit straight up had a jailbait subreddit lol.

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u/Snarwib Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

Victim surveys show much higher rates of child sexual abuse than most people likely think. And like all sexual assault, much higher than comes out in recorded crime data.

For example in Australia since those are the statistics I'm familiar with, about 11% of women and just under 5% of men reported being a victim of sexual abuse before the age of 15 in crime victimisation surveys by the Bureau of Statistics. Most common perpetrator was a known non family member.

That's pretty in line with other statistics from other countries, and remember it's almost certainly underestimated because not everyone is willing to acknowledge it to themselves, and to report even in best practice anonymous surveys.

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u/maximovious Nov 25 '22

The dude asked about statistics of paedophilia (a 'thought' crime) and you responded about statistics of about sexual abuse / sexual assault (a physical actual crime).

People confusing the two things are probably a big part of the problem.

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u/garlicroastedpotato Nov 25 '22

In the case the young female police posed as an 18-year old prostitute. When she met her clients in real life she told them she's actually 14. If they were okay with that they could meet her at a specific hotel room.... where police were waiting to arrest them. They caught a hundred pedophiles doing this and a few of them decided to call it entrapment.

Entrapment requires the police to provide inducements to commit a crime they would have otherwise not.

In a previous trial involving a terrorist, the terrorist was groomed by the RCMP to commit the crime, this was deemed to be entrapment which opens the doors to a case like this.

In this case they were able to prove that people using this website were known to order child sex workers after getting interviews from child sex victims.... so they weren't enticing the johns to do something they weren't already doing. When they were given the option the script required them to pass a virtue test. The 104 of the 1,000 who were invited using this technique were arrested. Mass entrapment would have a larger success rate.

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u/neihuffda Nov 25 '22

I've always been of the persuasion that we should help pedophiles rather than try to fuck them up. They have a mental problem they were born with, and we should help them to avoid succumbing to what they want. They can't be cured, of course, but they can be helped and understood. I've read about so many people explaining how they feel, that they know that their desires are wrong, illegal and frankly disgusting. They don't want to desire children, but they can't help it. It's like when I see a good looking woman, I might desire her for a bit in my mind.

I'm not a professional, so I wouldn't know how exactly to help these people. I'm sure professionals do though, so it's better to leave pedophiles in the hand of people who can help, rather than an angry mob of ugga-buggas.

I heard on the radio in Norway the other day, an ad to seek psychological help if you're a pedophile, and I'm so glad we're moving past being a pitchfork society.

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u/No-Significance2113 Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

Jesus Christ 104 men thought is was a fucken good idea to sleep with a 14yr old. Thank the giant flying spaghetti monster it was police on the other end and not children.

Edit changed god to giant flying spaghetti monster.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

There was a Florida school cop recently that was trying to lure a 14 year old girl. Turned out to be another law enforcement officer instead of a 14 year old girl. He resigned and didn’t get charged.

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u/bbycalz Nov 25 '22

Didnt get charged??

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u/FactoryDirectHuman Nov 25 '22

That's the public school "pass it along." Why deal with the legal consequences of a pedophile when they can quietly resign to later become someone else's problem?

Pedophiles love the access schools provide. Schools are unwilling to face the problem, passing it always to the next school.

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u/Knife-yWife-y Nov 25 '22

School resource officers (NOT a security guard) are an employee of the local police department. The schools pay for them to be on campus, but they wouldn't be responsible for hiring or firing them from the police force. 90% sure I am correct on this based on my experience with school resource officers, but don't quote me.

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u/epelle9 Nov 25 '22

Wtf is a school police officer?

Why the fuck does America need police in schools? Do they need criminals for slave labor that badly?

It's not like they do anything useful like stop shootings.

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u/anotherquack Nov 25 '22

“School resource officer” is what they’re often called. In our March towards defending everything that doesn’t involve guns or punishment, we’ve decided to deal with the collateral damage of this ( not enough staff to handle kids acting out, often because of a lack of food , health care, or other resources ) by having cops intervene with bad behavior and criminalizing children. Honestly, it’s less about slave labor and more about how much America hates the poor.

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u/montananightz Nov 25 '22

LOL here in Kansas we just had an SRO (school resource officer/school cop) get charged with shoplifting from Walmart. In 2018 another Kansas SRO was charged with "aggravated indecent liberties" (he fondled several teens).

If fucking Kansas can do this shit why the hell can't Florida? What's in the water over there?

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u/flamedarkfire Nov 25 '22

Is this the same guy that immediately got a job elsewhere investigating sex crimes?

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u/HymanisMyMan Nov 25 '22

They're so fucked in the head, that a 14 year old alone in a hotel room wasn't a red flag. They just strolled in

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u/DBerwick Nov 25 '22

"Turns out that 14 year old who was able to afford a taxi and a nice hotel room was actually a federal agent.

...How cool is that for someone her age?!"

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u/turkeygiant Nov 25 '22

What's interesting to me is that if they think these sites are readily putting underage girls in these criminal situations wouldn't it be a more effective use of their resources to be posing as johns and trying to suss out actual victims of trafficking who need saving? I'm not saying that these 104 creeps are innocent, but I wonder if there are statistics to back up the thought that putting the fear of god in potential johns would be of more benefit to trafficked victims than just you know...finding them and removing them from trafficking. Something about this whole sting just seems like it is low effort and low impact as far as benefiting non-imaginary victims.

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u/CMDR_Agony_Aunt Nov 25 '22

104 who responded to that particular advert! How many pedos didnt see the advert or didnt bother because it initially advertised as being 18.

Think about that for a moment.

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u/How_Does_One_Even Nov 25 '22

A lot of people seem to have no idea what entrapment is. Entrapment involves coercing or forcing someone to commit a crime that they would not have committed otherwise. Take note of the last qualifier: that they would not have committed otherwise.

The last time I saw a similar news article on reddit was when people were saying that it's entrapment when cops used lures in pokemon go around intersections to catch people on their phones while driving. You might be asking: "Why wasn't that entrapment?" and the answer is simple: The cops didn't make their supposed victims take out their phones, they had to have already been on their phones to notice the lure.

The reason why these ads aren't entrapment is the same. The officers didn't instil the urge to abuse children in their unwitting victims. The pedophiles needed to already have the desire to abuse children for them to not only agree to having sex with a 14 year old child, but also go to the hotel room after the fact. Any normal person would have reported the ad immediately.

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